cost of building green - perception vs. reality

[mark handler]

Hope all goes well for you.

 

[mtlogcabin]

Coug Dad said it best if it is truly more efficient then market, sell it and prove it with historical data. Mandating bicycle parking area and prefered parking for hybrid vehicles and car pooling, Requiring meters on all systems and equipment that use potable makeup water are the things that irk me and should not be part of a building departments codes.

Some things do not work on a national level one code fits all. LEEd is a perfect example of that. Take a Gold or Platnium project in So Ca and see if it will even qualify here in northwest Mt and look at the cost difference.

We have a 1.3 million dollar grant to install a second floor over the existing truck bays in the Fire House. The grant requires it meet LEED Silver Certification. The only way to install a floor between the existing floor and roof system and maintain the free span needed in the truck bays was to use a hollow core precast floor system. This one item alone having to be trucked in from Spokane Wa killed the LEED certifications and almost lost the grant. Fourtunatly the LEED certification requirement was dropped and the project is now out to bid.

So Mark yes LEED could have resulted in 1.3 million dollars of construction not happening in my area of 14% unemployment

 

[mark handler]

Sick building syndrome Has been around for years, long long before Leed, so let's blame it on Leed

A 1984 World Health Organization Committee report suggested that up to 30 percent of new and remodeled buildings worldwide may be the subject of excessive complaints related to indoor air quality (IAQ).

And mtlogcabin, I do not belive the underlying assumption that LEED could have resulted in your 14 percent unemployment

 

[conarb]

Of course it's become national joke, the hit of the superbowl this year. I gave a talk at a Stanford Alumni Association meeting recently on "Toxic Green" homes and building codes, they liked it so much that one of the attendees who is also a member of the Harvard Alumni Association asked me to make a presentation to them, which I have agreed to do.

 

[ewenme]

Conarb:

I've been to the Tuscany and Cinque Terre regions of Italy. I'd move there in an instant. Different life-style, different philosophy of life, and we have to admit it, the structures have mostly been there for many generations and will be there for many more. Community has a different meaning there, as does life-work. Most of the Italians [working-class people] did not feel oppressed by their system. I spent two days in Rome and that was more than enough for me. Give me the rural country, and leave the urban world for those disconnected from nature.

 

[mtlogcabin]

Mark there was never an assumption that LEED led to the 14% unemployment rate here. I clearly stated it would have resulted in the loss of a 1.3 million dollar construction project if it was required to meet LEED Silver requirements. We where fortunate that those that are overseeing our grant recgonized a problem and where willing to work with us to keep the project alive.

As your signature states "When two people agree about everything, only one of 'em's thinking." I think some of this has been hastily cobbled together by many different orginizations for a number of reasons be it to make money, save energy, print code books, save the planet, change the way we live or a number other things.

A consensus does not make something true or correct just as a perception doesn't, at one time there was a consensus the world was flat, We all evolved from slime and Global Warming is a fact resulting from mans actions. One was proven wrong one will probably never be a proven scientific fact and the jury is still out on the last one. We need more open ended discussions and that is what this board is about. Finding answers and solutions to code issues and heading off potential problems.

Have you read the IGCC version 1.0?

 

[conarb]

Average additional construction cost:• LEED “Certified”: less than 1%

• LEED “Silver”: 1‐2%

• LEED “Gold”: 3‐4%

• LEED “Platinum”: 4‐8%

Mark:

Those numbers appear to be grossly underestimated from what developers are claiming, one in San Francisco claimed 300% more to get height limits and historic designation waived, he was probably overestimating to get what he wanted, do you have a source for those numbers?

Percentages can also be a misleading indicator, if I am forced to go BuiklItGreen in my Saratoga home I'm done a rough estimate of $100,000 more, that's only 3% in the context of the entire construction costs, but it's somebody else's $100,000, somebody who doesn't believe in environmental hysteria and might prefer to spend his $100,000 on wine, women and song, or maybe upgrade from a BMW to a Bentley, or maybe put it toward his daughters' college educations.

Also, if I lose the fight to eliminate the Green Code requirement I also lose the battle against fire sprinklers, if I lose that fight it's estimated to cost $300,000 more, or 10%. BTW, I am not fighting the Wildfire-Urban Interface code, that is costing around $100,000 more, with which both he and I are gladly willing to comply. We are also voluntarily building with a steel frame for a variety of reasons, including earthquake protection. It's easy to see why construction costs for a custom home are soaring over $1,000 a foot in this area. Click through this new home under construction, this sits in Woodside near where Steve Jobs has spent 30 years trying to get approval to tear down an old home and build a new one, if you factor in the costs of the approval, attorneys, permit expediters, and the permit process a $1,000 a foot will soon sound like the good old days.

Some people play fast and loose with other people's money in order to further their own political/religions beliefs, like Gaians and assorted other "save-the-earth types.

 

[mark handler]

So it's not about Sick building syndrome, It's about money.

 

[conarb]

So it's not about Sick building syndrome, It's about money

No it's about both, it's also about the freedom to do what you want and not have to do what commercial, political, and religious "stakeholders" think you should want. It's also about building a healthy home in line with the Healthy Building Standards of the Global Health and Safety Initiative. It's not about what the world's most renowned scientist calls "a secular religion" . It's also about rebelling against a totalitarian state and their Green Police.

 

[mark handler]

Boy, the next thing you are going to tell me "The World Is Flat"....

 

[conarb]

I guess we are lucky to have someone here smarter than Freeman Dyson.

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largess from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years.Great nations rise and fall. The people go from bondage to spiritual truth, to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency, from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependence, from dependence back again to bondage."

-Source Unknown (Most people believe it's Alexander Tytler)

And:

"You Americans are so gullible. No, you won't accept Communism outright; but we'll keep feeding you small doses of Socialism until you will finally wake up and find that you already have Communism. We won't have to fight you; we'll so weaken your economy, until you fall like overripe fruit into our hands." Nikita Sergeyevich Khrushchev (April 17, 1894 – September 11, 1971)

 

[mark handler]

No civilization can exist without social stability. The need for stability is why we create government. We are a county of laws. If you want to eliminate laws, you get Anarchy. No enforced authority.

If LEED Is Broken; Let's Fix It.

Addressing LEED elements is like solving a Rubik’s Cube. It takes the right combination of elements to complete a building.

 

[conarb]

Well a somewhat positive respond, I'll respond in kind.

No civilization can exist without social stability. The need for stability is why we create government. We are a county of laws. If you want to eliminate laws, you get Anarchy. No enforced authority.

The world is Darwinian world, full of winners and losers, we can't change that, we should remain a meritocracy and not seek a Utopian egalitarian society and destroy what Abraham Lincoln described as "The last best hope on earth" for freedom, social engineering should be ended as public policy, we need fewer laws limiting freedom not more, the Audi Superbowl commercial shows the public perception of "Green", and I'm sure that the creators of the commercial didn't even know that the word had come to be synonymous with "toxic".

If LEED Is Broken; Let's Fix It.Addressing LEED elements is like solving a Rubik’s Cube. It takes the right combination of elements to complete a building.

To start with dump the USGBC and it's LEED program, it was born of a fraudulent scheme and continues to be nothing but profiteering, it's been a failure on all counts at this point, the ICC and California have come up with their own green codes, ironically Big Eco is suing to block California's program because it doesn't go far enough, but the lawsuit is an opportunity to redesign the entire scheme, even through Amicus Curiae pleadings in support of the Sierra Club, as much as I despise that Socialist organization. In a positive vein, I like what has been done in the Portola Valley Town Center, Portola Valley was my old college drinking grounds at Rossotti's Beer Garden, it was horse farms and ranches in my day, now it is the home of billionaires who can well afford "Green" in this video

, the former owner of Sunset Magazine, the green center cost thousands of dollars per square foot, money donated by the local billionaires, but they built a sustainable building built to last thousands of years according to Lane. Sustainable should mean built to last forever with the best of materials, not continuing to build with cheap junk and replace it every few years, we should end this disposable society and the primary focus of green codes should be "built to last forever".You know Mark I was a NAHB member for several years, I dropped out in the late 70s when a guy from the national headquarters gave a speech one night, he said that we builders should take a page from the car manufacturers' book, and build homes that continuously have to be replaced, that we built homes that last too long and don't have repeat customers, that goal has been achieved with the combination of green and energy codes.

 

[mark handler]

So Conarb you are againt the California's Energy Efficiency Standards not Just Leed. The California's Energy Efficiency Standards is what creates the "tight" buildings not Leed, perception vs. reality.

 

[conarb]

Mark:

I do not believe that either energy consumption or green building practices are within the code mandates, the codes should confine themselves with public health and safety as they were originally implemented to do, saving money, saving the earth, saving trees, or a host of other savings should be personal decisions and should have nothing to do with with codes. Once we get into enforcing personal beliefs, even beliefs held by the majority, we get onto the slippery slope of religion and/or totalitarianism. Interestingly the first code books stated in their prefaces that the intent of the codes was to protect the health, safety, and increase the tax base, somehow increasing the tax base seems to have dropped out, but we all know that it's there.

I particularly abhor the implementation of the Gain religion into the codes, I think it's a violation of the separation of church and state.

Gaianism is a the environmentalist religion described by late author Michael Crichton. It is rooted in an effort to scam taxpayers and quartz crystal buyers out of billions of dollars by pretending to hold intuitive knowledge of humanity's intrinsic connection with our Home World, the Earth, also known as Gaia and then claiming "global warming". Gaia was originally a minor Greek goddess of little importance. Approaching our Home World as Gaia, a name derived from ancient Greek Polytheism, offers us a modern Earth-centered and mostly Pantheist spirituality based on a belief in the intrinsic personality of the Earth as a Living Organism that has passed through billions of years of Evolutionary expression. The modern emergence of this Earth-centered philosophy stems out of the accepted Gaia Theory which conveys the science behind the Earth as an ancient, living and self-regulating system within systems. Gaians are individuals who use the Gaia Theory of debunked global warming hoaxer James Lovelock spiritually. These people hold a strong belief that the Earth is, in its ancient legacy and self-regulating expression of life, an entity that we are defined through as a species of the planet. It is a Gaian's endeavor to maintain a close relationship with the planet in order to strive toward world peace, maintain global homeostasis and find inner fulfillment.

Often referred to as Gaianism, or the Gaian Religion, this spiritual aspect of the philosophy is very broad and inclusive, making it adaptable to other religions: Humanism, Taoism, Neo-Paganism, Pantheism, Judeo-Christian Religions, and others.

The beliefs of Gaianism are fairly open-ended:

1. Honor the Earth, who is often approached as Gaia. (Gaia, sometimes spelled Gaea). Gaia is a historically-rooted name which in its modern approach represents the co-dependent "Web of Life" that includes all physical forms of existence from plants to humans; sometimes this is expanded to include stars and other planets, or the Universe itself. Some Gaians say Gaia is Earth's authentic name as "She" is therefore personalized in order for us as humans to have a better relationship with Her. This is in the same sense that Mars (or Nigel) are names of the planet Mars.

2. Endeavor to Soften or Reduce the Human Impact on Gaia. (Essentially, this means being mindful of one's actions and to be moderate with natural resources. Environmentalism and Environmental Education is strongly encouraged.)

3. Be Respectful of Life in All Its Forms. (Be respectful and courteous not only of human life, but also animal and to an extent plant life. Many Gaians often become vegetarians and vegans, however this is not a requirement.)

4. Capture control of the State and raise taxes as a form of tithing.

More religious aspects of Gaianism (such as the nature of the Divine, afterlife, etc.) are left up to the individual's personal belief system, however there is a general consensus on the preservation of consciousness following the death of a body. This preservation applies to all life forms and not just the human condition. Gaianism is simply a spiritual philosophy given in an effort to understand the unity of the universe that binds us all and encourage environmental awareness.¹

¹ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaianism

 

[mark handler]

Have you thought about trying, thorazine.

 

[conarb]

No, prefer fighting the imposition of religion by code, the Gaia Hypothesis is the greatest threat to the Untied States, our economy, our money, and our liberty today.

 

[mark handler]

OK. thanks for sharing.....

No man is happy without a delusion of some kind. Delusions are as necessary to our happiness as realities.

 

[packsaddle]

In case you have been living under a rock since Obama was elected, the current administration has clearly stated the real ambition of green technologies: SOCIAL JUSTICE AND REDISTRIBUTION OF WEALTH.

This whole hippie movement has nothing to do with energy efficiency or sustainability....these are just code words for REPARATIONS.

Deny or ignore it at your own peril.

 

[mark handler]

.... send in the clowns.

Don't bother - they're here.....

 

[vegas paul]

Getting back to something REAL and CODE RELATED here, let me ask:

How can the formaldehyde-ridden products make a tight building sick, when they don't make a loose building sick? I know, I know, the chemicals can't escape, HOWEVER, with code-required 15 cfm per (calculated) occupant OUTDOOR VENTILATION air, or 0.35 air changes/hour... isn't that LOOSE enough for you?

The whole issue of tightness is rediculous when the very same code requires outside air at these quantities. Venilate the D#%* house in compliance with the code and voila, the house isn't any sicker than a house built in 2000 with the same materials.

Rant complete...

 

[mark handler]

Paul

formaldehyde-ridden products are but one source of SBS

Benzene, Trichloroethylene, radon, Carbon Monoxide, Nitrogen dioxide, Asbestos, Mold, VOLATILE ORGANIC COMPOUNDS (VOCs) and Sulfur dioxide

 

[vegas paul]

Mark - OK, but my question still stands... Why does a tight house (with required outside ventilation providing required air changes) get any "sicker" than a non-tight house regardless what chemicals are introduced? Don't these compounds get ventilated out just like they have for years in homes built to older codes?

And a better question... if the ventilation is required, why tighten up the house, just to loosen it with required outside air requirements?

 

[mark handler]

The required outside ventilation is not sufficient in "new or remodeled" buildings. They need to be aired out prior to occupancy. Most building occupants do not want to wait until the chemicals have “leached” out. This can take months to years. That "new" building or car smell.