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DESIGN BUILD

D

DAYWALKER

Bronze Member
Joined
Jan 13, 2010
Messages
66
Location
NORTHERN ILLINOIS
It's time to jump in.....the water feels fine. Salutations and greetings to all.

Had a submittal hit my desk yesterday......2006 codes....new liquor store in an old vacant building.

The man who draws gave me a basic layout.....and added a general note that all subcontractors shall submit design build drawings and specs to the AHJ.

Owner expects me to take a leap of faith......issue a permit.....and wait for the rest to come in.

My response should be........."WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME"

Would anybody out there be willing to take the leap.....or would you put the project in a holding pattern.....and get it all upfront?
 
Re: DESIGN BUILD

Welcome to the board.

Deferred submittals are not that uncommon and are typically the case for fire sprinklers and fire alarm. However, the Permit Application should have enough information to demonstrate that the design is in conformance with the code.

In the largest projects, it is not uncommon for phased permits with demolition, excavation and shoring, footings and foundations, structure, building and then finishes. The risk is to the owner in that subsequent submittals are not automatically approved.

It is best to have a policy one way or the other so applicants will be treated equally and know what is expected of them for phased or deferred submittals.

Do not let "design build" denegrate into "build design"
 
Re: DESIGN BUILD

DAYWALKER,

Welcome to the codes forum! This is ' THE ' coolest code forum on the internet. ;)

Regarding your question, here in this jurisdiction, we would ask for as much

information to be submitted on paper ' up front ' as possible. Sometimes, because

of political connections, certain contractors, owners and others get an

express pass through the plans review & permitting process.

Do you have the full support of "the powers that be" in your location, or is that a

subjective level of support? Unfortunately, in spite of the best intentions and

adopted codes and ordinances, certain people get to move / work outside of the

norms. It is what it is! As has been stated on here; and on a certain former

codes forum that most of us used, ..."Learn to pick your battles!" ;)

One of my concerns for your particular ' new ' liquor store would be the quantity

of the alcohol stored on the site. Others on here will have other concerns and views

as well.

Again, "Welcome to the codes forum!" Please be sure to thank our gracious

benefactor, Jeff Remas. This web site is on his dime!

 
Re: DESIGN BUILD

I am in Wisconsin and we submit "design-build" projects this way alot. We submit the architecture and the design build MEP's follow with separate submittals. We keep our client informed that because the MEP drawings are coming later that it could impact some of the architecture. We also work with the design build contractor so as not to get a big surprise in the MEP design that kills our architectural plans. There are pros and cons but if you keep involved with the contractor and with the contractors DB MEP people it can work. It also helps that the contractor is experienced with design build. Everyone has to be involved in the process.
 
Re: DESIGN BUILD

Personally, I am uncomfortable with the idea. It tends to add an element of 'project management' to the Code Officials duties that I do not believe we should have. And, as Coug Dad points out, this can easily denegrate into 'build-design', a slippery slope on a good day.

Complete and fully coordinated plans tend to cause fewer problems during construction and during inspections. I know I'll be in the minority on this one, but I'm used to that... ;)
 
Re: DESIGN BUILD

Daywalker,

Welcome to the forum.

I agree with John; "I don't even want to see someone with a wood stake or shovel in hand on that site; until all the required documents have been reviewed and then and only then is a permit issued".

But, that's just me, :)

Uncle Bob
 
Re: DESIGN BUILD

Move along folks, nothing here to see..

Pretty common stuff. JD is exactly right, it does add an element of management to the project, no doubt about it. However, on larger projects (not liquor stores), phased projects are the rule, not the exception. We've been doing this for 20 years. As Coug Dad said, the code clearly recognizes phased submittals.

The key is to make sure it is very clear what the initial phase of the permit covers, and that your field staff doesn't let it go any farther without releases from the plan review division.
 
Re: DESIGN BUILD

I agree with Coug and John. Here, when design-build means deferred MEP submittals it means separate permits and added plan review fees. I let them know that up front. We will stop work when the permits haven't kept up with construction.
 
Re: DESIGN BUILD

Approval contingent upon building department approval of X drawings prior to first inspection of X.

I wonder how big the store is and how much is missing/
 
Re: DESIGN BUILD

Yes, the recognizes phased submittals, but for a tenant finish liquor store? I suppose you could allow it, and as brudgers said, not do any inspections on whatever you haven't reviewed plans for, but seems like it wouldn't be a very smooth process in this application. I could see where somewhere in the middle you would be the bad guy, holding things up.........

I'd probably hold out for all plans in this instance. JMHO
 
Re: DESIGN BUILD

for a tenat fitout, seems odd to have "design build"..

Usually reserved for big, fast track projects and renovations where the existing conditions are unknown.. and the exact new configuration may not be settled.

Puts a lot of work on the field inspector's shoulders.
 
Re: DESIGN BUILD

peach said:
for a tenat fitout, seems odd to have "design build"..Usually reserved for big, fast track projects and renovations where the existing conditions are unknown.. and the exact new configuration may not be settled.

Puts a lot of work on the field inspector's shoulders.
Click to expand...
Some pencil pushers use "design build" as a euphemism for "not in my contract because the owner doesn't want to pay for my consultants and I don't know squat about how to draw it."

On the other hand all sorts of little chicken **** projects are delivered design build. The owner talks to the contractor he knows who hires an architect because the city requires one.
 
Re: DESIGN BUILD

There is a difference between a phased project and a project with separate designers for everything.

In the first case phase the permits and inspections to the reviewed plans on the job site.

The separate designers need to get all their designs to coordinate before they are submitted as one complete set of plans. It is just too much for the reviewed to keep up with if there are multiple plans submitted over a couple of weeks.
 
Re: DESIGN BUILD

Thanks to all for the response.......and thanks to Jeff for this forum.

I spoke with the DP on friday.....claims the tenant wants to minimize his costs....as suspected.

The DP does have MEP people he can turn to......so this is in a holding pattern....with the support of the Mayor. And yes......I've been around the political arena long enough to know how to pick my battles. Often my position has been.....THAT'S NOT THE SWORD I WANT TO DIE ON.

I've also asked for structural certification on the old barrel truss roof....which prompted the owner of the building to call the Mayor. (this building should be torn down) Lately I have a reputation for making grown men cry. Mayors response to the owner was.....fine, just leave the building empty.

I'm installing bullet proof glass around my office today.
 
Re: DESIGN BUILD

I'm advocate of deferred submittals as a choice of the design team, but different jurisdictions have different requirements. Some don't allow it, others do, some charge a fee for deferred submittals.

Whatever your policy is, just be consistent from project to project. Quite often MEP is designed by subcontractors. When the design professional finishes the drawings, the MEP subcontractors are not yet known. Deferred submittals allow the permit process to get going concurrent with bidding of the project. I have certainly seen a trend of jurisdictions leaning toward no deferrals.
 
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