1. Welcome to the new and improved Building Code Forum. We appreciate you being here and hope that you are getting the information that you need concerning all codes of the building trades. This is a free forum to the public due to the generosity of the Sawhorses, Corporate Supporters and Supporters who have upgraded their accounts. If you would like to have improved access to the forum please upgrade to Sawhorse by clicking here: Upgrades
    Dismiss Notice

Developer frustrated by changing rules

Discussion in 'Planning and Zoning' started by mark handler, Jul 2, 2016.

  1. mark handler

    mark handler Sawhorse

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2009
    Messages:
    10,739
    Likes Received:
    944
    Developer frustrated by changing rules
    http://www.intelligencer.ca/2016/06/27/developer-frustrated-by-changing-rules
    Rules limiting the number of kitchens in a dwelling ignited a fiery debate at council Monday about how city staff communicate rule changes.
    Some councillors are now calling for improved communication from city staff after a developer cried foul over what he said was being blindsided by a flip-flop in city building rules.
    The operator of Klemencic Homes said after being given the go ahead to build kitchens in the basement level of eight homes the process was abruptly stopped by a building inspector.
    “The city has snuck up and cut the legs out from under us by changing the rules in mid-stride,” Mark Klemencic said, before asking the restriction be rescinded.
    Even worse, he said there was a complete absence of communication which goes beyond simple oversight in his mind.
    Council voted to have a report be drafted addressing the misstep and options to potentially ease restrictions on Klemencic’s project.
    “Refer it back to planning so we can have further discussion as to how proper notice should be given in the future so this doesn’t happen again,” said Jackie Denyes, chair of the planning committee.
    She said some of the onus to stay in the loop is on the developer as well. She said public notice of the change was placed in the media and input was received from other builders before the appeal period ended May 30. She said builders need to be more vocal on a go forward basis.
    The city’s director of engineering cautioned council about opening the door to a what could be a flood of such request, which “could pose significant risk to residents of the city. That is a huge liability for the city and I can’t stress that enough.”
    Coun. Paul Carr didn’t mince words when he said “the issues is communication.”
    Klemencic said the problem is the city’s sudden shift in approach came after Klemencic, developer of 66 single family dwellings on Greenhill Lane, just east of the sports centre, had already built seven approved lower level kitchen additions and was in the process of marketing it to other buyers. He said there was no intent to promote as duplex, which isn’t permitted.
    City building officials first rejeced the application altogether saying single dwelling units should only have one stove.
    “We challenged this statement of the chief building official and it was admitted that no such provision existed in the Belleville Building Code or zoning bylaw,” He said.
    “This persisted for four months,” he said of the 2013 ordeal.
    Officials then claimed to fear that owners could rebuild the home to create an illegal duplex.
    “That was clearly an invalid reason to refuse permit for construction that met code,” he said, adding that most buildings allow the opportunity for people to do something illegal but the city depends on its residents to follow its many rules.
    Coun. Kelly McCaw said “if people are going to sneak behind our backs and do it we might as well have it so they can apply for permits.”
    Klemencic commenced outfitting seven homes, at purchasers’ request, once things were cleared up and the go ahead was granted in 2014.
    He was granted clearance on May 30, to build another home, but two days later during a routine visit, he offhandedly mentioned that a new bylaw had taken effect on June 1 that prohibited second kitchens.
    “We were refused a permit on the basis of the new bylaw,” he said.
    Klemencic was infuriated about not being contacted about the said change in rules and didn’t get to appeal.
    “I’m disturbed that this important bylaw could be implemented with little apparent justification in such a discreet manner,” he said.
     
  2. ICE

    ICE Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2011
    Messages:
    8,998
    Likes Received:
    1,154
    Some might say that if on May 30th, Klemencic had an approval to build another dwelling with two kitchens, in writing, from a person that has the authority to do so, he might have an argument.
    However, the approval on May 30th was within the law at the time. When the law changed on June 1st. The approval became illegal and therefor shall be withdrawn.

    Of course telling Klemencic that he had until closing time to get a permit might have made a difference.

    A judge could decide that since there are eight such dwellings, one more is not a big deal. And since the municipality was dumb enough to allow it.....ever.....they deserve to lose.
     
    #2 ICE, Jul 2, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2016
  3. Mark K

    Mark K Platinum Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2010
    Messages:
    1,647
    Likes Received:
    198
    In the US if the auxiliary kitchens were properly permitted and significant construction took place prior to the change in the law the courts will likely consider that they had a vested right to build the kitchens and thus the city could not force them to tear out these kitchens.

    There is also the question of whether a limit on the number of kitchens is a matter for building code or zoning regulations. In some states that have a statewide building code this could prevent the local jurisdiction from imposing such a requirement.
     
  4. conarb

    conarb Registered User

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2009
    Messages:
    3,510
    Likes Received:
    256
    That's Canada, defined as: "A large drinking country with an even larger hockey problem."
     
  5. cda

    cda Sawhorse

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2009
    Messages:
    18,400
    Likes Received:
    1,307
  6. conarb

    conarb Registered User

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2009
    Messages:
    3,510
    Likes Received:
    256
    During most of my career more than one kitchen was banned in single family zoned areas, more than one kitchen could invite second families to move in and destroy the character of single family neighborhoods.
     
  7. fatboy

    fatboy Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2009
    Messages:
    5,987
    Likes Received:
    675
    Kosher kitchen?
     
  8. cda

    cda Sawhorse

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2009
    Messages:
    18,400
    Likes Received:
    1,307

    There you go
    Need two kitchens for religious reasons !!!
     
  9. mark handler

    mark handler Sawhorse

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2009
    Messages:
    10,739
    Likes Received:
    944
    In the basement?
     
  10. conarb

    conarb Registered User

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2009
    Messages:
    3,510
    Likes Received:
    256
    I've built several kosher kitchens, you don't need separate kitchens, you do need storage for four sets of dishes, pots, pans, etc., two for everyday, regular and kosher, and two for formal, regular and kosher. BTW, most fo the older mansions also had butlers' pantries, there is a sink in them but no cooking facilities. Pretty easy for the plan checker to see whether the facilities are set up for a more elaborate kitchen or set up to serve a second dwelling unit circumventing the single family zoning code.

    In one case I built a fancy modern kitchen for the wife of an Italian chef, he owned a prominent Italian restaurant in town and wanted nothing to do with the fancy kitchen, when we were done he had me move his big old gas range down to the basement, install a huge free-standing commercial stainless steel restaurant sink, and build cabinets for all of his huge pots that he boiled his pasta in and pans that he sauteed in. Luigi Cabiale thought the new kitchen was silly and filled with gadgets, he wanted to cook like he cooked in Luigi's Restaurant downtown.
     
  11. cda

    cda Sawhorse

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2009
    Messages:
    18,400
    Likes Received:
    1,307

    Yep

    Some people have a separate catering/ entertaining kitchen in there entertaining area !!!
     
  12. Msradell

    Msradell Sawhorse

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2011
    Messages:
    889
    Likes Received:
    97
    Exactly what I was thinking, where I grew up in Rochester, New York, many homes had Kosher kitchens in the basement.

    That's exactly where many of them were. The main kitchen upstairs was also a kosher kitchen but for certain religious holidays they had to use the 2nd kitchen.
     
  13. ICE

    ICE Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2011
    Messages:
    8,998
    Likes Received:
    1,154
    So what's different about a kosher kitchen? Why wouldn't there be just one kitchen that could be a kosher kitchen?
     
  14. cda

    cda Sawhorse

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2009
    Messages:
    18,400
    Likes Received:
    1,307

    Ones kosher and one is not

    Maybe so they do not make the kosher kitchen non kosher by accident
     
  15. mark handler

    mark handler Sawhorse

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2009
    Messages:
    10,739
    Likes Received:
    944
    [​IMG]
    Total separation of meat and dairy required in the kosher kitchen, separate sets of dishes, pots, silverware, serving dishes, bread trays and salt shakers are needed. These different sets should be kept in separate cabinets. Also necessary are separate sets of draining boards, draining racks, dish sponges, scouring pads, dish towels, and tablecloths. Dish soap, cleanser, and scouring pads used for dishes and pot.
    You do not have seperate kitchens and you do not place one in the basement.
     
    #16 mark handler, Jul 2, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2016
  16. mark handler

    mark handler Sawhorse

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2009
    Messages:
    10,739
    Likes Received:
    944
    NOT.
     
  17. jwilly3879

    jwilly3879 Sawhorse

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2010
    Messages:
    172
    Likes Received:
    44
    The neighborhood I grew up in was primarily Italian and there always was a kitchen in the basement. That's where all the canning was done and large holiday meals were prepared and then brought upstairs just before dinner and served from the upstairs kitchen.
     
  18. conarb

    conarb Registered User

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2009
    Messages:
    3,510
    Likes Received:
    256
    I built a restaurant for a Greek family once, I went into their home to get the papers and loan documents signed, it was an older Victorian home that you entered from a long set of front stairs, we entered through a side door into a on-grade basement with 7' ceilings, there were rugs on the dirt floor and it was fully furnished including one of those cheap metal kitchens you can buy through catalogs. I asked the son (with whom I was dealing) why they lived in the basement? He told me the upstairs was for formal guests and holiday celebrations only and he took me up, it too was fully furnished with everything covered with white sheets, he said it was only used once or twice a year.
     
  19. cda

    cda Sawhorse

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2009
    Messages:
    18,400
    Likes Received:
    1,307
    Government telling you how to live again

    Just need government issued housing!!!
     
    FLSTF01 likes this.

Share This Page