jeffc
Bronze Member
What would be the advantage to just addressing the piers? I usually take a holistic approach. If the perimeter beams and center beams are contributing to the problem, I would include them in the scope of the work/repair.
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Did Builder Cut Corners w/ Pier & Beam on Clay Soil?
- Thread starter Kevin Stokes
- Start date
mark handler
SAWHORSE
Without a proper investigation there is no way people in 40 plus states and canada can solve it.
Is it expansive soil?
Are the framing members overspaned?
What are the other loads?
Without these, it's just speculation.
Is it expansive soil?
Are the framing members overspaned?
What are the other loads?
Without these, it's just speculation.
Paul Sweet
SAWHORSE
Long ago when I was an architectural engineering student at the University of Texas I worked for a designer on some commercial buildings in east Austin. The foundations were 30 ft. deep piers (probably 3 ft. or so diameter) with belled bottoms. They were reinforced to keep the expanding soil from snapping the concrete. We used hollow forms below the grade beams to keep the expanding soil from pushing the grade beams up.
This would be overkill for a residence, but it shows that 2 feet is way too shallow.
This would be overkill for a residence, but it shows that 2 feet is way too shallow.
mark handler
SAWHORSE
Foundation Failures…Why so many in Texas?
https://blog.mysanantonio.com/markeberwine/2009/05/foundation-failures-why-so-many-in-texas/
How is it that for over a century contractors have built skyscrapers and massive structures that span acres, and millions of homes that have withstood decades of rain and drought, yet Texas Homebuilders have such a dismal record when it comes to constructing foundations that properly support the walls, ceilings, and other superstructure components? Simply put, why are there so many houses in Texas with foundations that have failed or are otherwise in need of foundation repairs/stabilization?
The favorite excuse that shoddy builders use when explaining away yet another failed foundation is ‘Texas soils’. Somehow we are expected to believe that the soils in Texas occur nowhere else in the world. While quality homebuilders are busy building homes with solid, properly engineered foundations that will last for 100 or more years, shoddy builders are busy petitioning the Texas legislature to continue to allow them to build substandard houses.
Shoddy Homebuilders and the engineers they hire to design low-cost, minimally functional foundations, would have homeowners believe that the reason a foundation fails is because the homeowner did not ‘water around the foundation’ properly. If the foundation fails, the shoddy homebuilder will tell the homeowner it’s because the homeowner did not ‘water around the foundation’. If the homeowner says he or she did water around the foundation, the builder will say “you watered too much”. It is a no win situation for the homeowner.
Texas law allows builders to construct minimally functional foundations that require large volumes of water be used in the soils around the house to ATTEMPT to keep the foundation from failing. Doesn’t it seem odd, or bizarre that with all the emphasis on responsible water usage and water restrictions, that Texas lawmakers would continue to allow, session after session after session after session, homebuilders to construct house foundations that require artificial hydration of the soils that support the slab?
Imagine this, better yet, experience this for yourself…. When you come home from work today observe all of the brown and dying yards/grass in your neighborhood as a result of city/local watering restrictions. Then notice the commode that you just used is ‘low-volume’ water saver unit mandated by federal law. Next, as you begin to shower, notice the minimal water flow. That’s right, federal law requires that the showerhead water flow is a maximum of two (2) gallons per minute. As you head to your favorite restaurant, notice how they don’t automatically serve a glass of water to everyone at the table. If you want a glass of water you have to ask for it. This has been the case for years. Finally, as you return home from the restaurant, walk over to the outside water faucet and turn off the water to the ‘soaker’ hose. The soaker hose that for months has been dumping hundreds and thousands of gallons of precious water into the ground in an attempt to keep your foundation from failing or at the very least, to keep too many cracks from forming in the walls and ceilings.
Are you starting to ask, in the words of Bruce Bowen, “Hey, what’s goin’ on here”?
I’ll tell you what is going on. Each legislative session, shoddy homebuilders and their lawyers descend on the Capitol to browbeat and mislead our lawmakers about the need for laws that allow builders to construct what, in many cases, amounts to ‘disposable housing’. Homebuilder ‘trade-group’ representatives continually warn our lawmakers that if the builders are made to construct quality homes, it will drive homebuilders out of business. This statement is continually made, in spite of the fact that many builders operate with 30% profit margins. Compare this with the 2% to 12% profit margin at which the majority of other businesses operate.
Year after year, homebuyers shop prices between various builders. They will take a set of house plans to multiple builders to obtain bids. The bids for building the ‘same’ house will vary by tens of thousands of dollars to hundreds of thousands of dollars. How does this happen? Well… Quality builders bid the plans to build a house that doesn’t develop foundation problems, doesn’t develop dozens and dozens of cracks in the interior walls, ceilings, and exterior walls, and doesn’t have warped and unlevel countertops, leaking roofs, and a multitude of Code violations. Simply put, quality builders take pride in their homes and their prices reflect quality construction. Meanwhile, the shoddy builder bids the house knowing he can construct a substandard foundation, isn’t required to repair cracks in the walls and ceilings or the exterior walls, and paints the house with paint so thin and watered-down that the house has to be re-painted a year after construction.
If you are contemplating having a home built or buying a new home, know that Texas laws are designed to protect shoddy builders. Once you build or buy that new home, you are at the mercy of your builder and the laws designed to protect your builder. You had better do your homework. Knock on doors of houses that your builder has built. Find out how the builder treated them AFTER the contract was signed and AFTER closing. Find out how any warranty claims were handled. Were there repairs or excuses? If you are buying a ‘spec’ home or a home from a volume builder, walk the neighborhood and ask the homeowners about any problems they have encountered. Look for problems common to multiple homes and start by looking at the homes that are the oldest in the neighborhood. In addition, hiring a competent Home Inspector to inspect the house as its being built, or at the very least, once the house is completed, is a decision smart buyer’s make.
Welcome to Texas...
https://blog.mysanantonio.com/markeberwine/2009/05/foundation-failures-why-so-many-in-texas/
How is it that for over a century contractors have built skyscrapers and massive structures that span acres, and millions of homes that have withstood decades of rain and drought, yet Texas Homebuilders have such a dismal record when it comes to constructing foundations that properly support the walls, ceilings, and other superstructure components? Simply put, why are there so many houses in Texas with foundations that have failed or are otherwise in need of foundation repairs/stabilization?
The favorite excuse that shoddy builders use when explaining away yet another failed foundation is ‘Texas soils’. Somehow we are expected to believe that the soils in Texas occur nowhere else in the world. While quality homebuilders are busy building homes with solid, properly engineered foundations that will last for 100 or more years, shoddy builders are busy petitioning the Texas legislature to continue to allow them to build substandard houses.
Shoddy Homebuilders and the engineers they hire to design low-cost, minimally functional foundations, would have homeowners believe that the reason a foundation fails is because the homeowner did not ‘water around the foundation’ properly. If the foundation fails, the shoddy homebuilder will tell the homeowner it’s because the homeowner did not ‘water around the foundation’. If the homeowner says he or she did water around the foundation, the builder will say “you watered too much”. It is a no win situation for the homeowner.
Texas law allows builders to construct minimally functional foundations that require large volumes of water be used in the soils around the house to ATTEMPT to keep the foundation from failing. Doesn’t it seem odd, or bizarre that with all the emphasis on responsible water usage and water restrictions, that Texas lawmakers would continue to allow, session after session after session after session, homebuilders to construct house foundations that require artificial hydration of the soils that support the slab?
Imagine this, better yet, experience this for yourself…. When you come home from work today observe all of the brown and dying yards/grass in your neighborhood as a result of city/local watering restrictions. Then notice the commode that you just used is ‘low-volume’ water saver unit mandated by federal law. Next, as you begin to shower, notice the minimal water flow. That’s right, federal law requires that the showerhead water flow is a maximum of two (2) gallons per minute. As you head to your favorite restaurant, notice how they don’t automatically serve a glass of water to everyone at the table. If you want a glass of water you have to ask for it. This has been the case for years. Finally, as you return home from the restaurant, walk over to the outside water faucet and turn off the water to the ‘soaker’ hose. The soaker hose that for months has been dumping hundreds and thousands of gallons of precious water into the ground in an attempt to keep your foundation from failing or at the very least, to keep too many cracks from forming in the walls and ceilings.
Are you starting to ask, in the words of Bruce Bowen, “Hey, what’s goin’ on here”?
I’ll tell you what is going on. Each legislative session, shoddy homebuilders and their lawyers descend on the Capitol to browbeat and mislead our lawmakers about the need for laws that allow builders to construct what, in many cases, amounts to ‘disposable housing’. Homebuilder ‘trade-group’ representatives continually warn our lawmakers that if the builders are made to construct quality homes, it will drive homebuilders out of business. This statement is continually made, in spite of the fact that many builders operate with 30% profit margins. Compare this with the 2% to 12% profit margin at which the majority of other businesses operate.
Year after year, homebuyers shop prices between various builders. They will take a set of house plans to multiple builders to obtain bids. The bids for building the ‘same’ house will vary by tens of thousands of dollars to hundreds of thousands of dollars. How does this happen? Well… Quality builders bid the plans to build a house that doesn’t develop foundation problems, doesn’t develop dozens and dozens of cracks in the interior walls, ceilings, and exterior walls, and doesn’t have warped and unlevel countertops, leaking roofs, and a multitude of Code violations. Simply put, quality builders take pride in their homes and their prices reflect quality construction. Meanwhile, the shoddy builder bids the house knowing he can construct a substandard foundation, isn’t required to repair cracks in the walls and ceilings or the exterior walls, and paints the house with paint so thin and watered-down that the house has to be re-painted a year after construction.
If you are contemplating having a home built or buying a new home, know that Texas laws are designed to protect shoddy builders. Once you build or buy that new home, you are at the mercy of your builder and the laws designed to protect your builder. You had better do your homework. Knock on doors of houses that your builder has built. Find out how the builder treated them AFTER the contract was signed and AFTER closing. Find out how any warranty claims were handled. Were there repairs or excuses? If you are buying a ‘spec’ home or a home from a volume builder, walk the neighborhood and ask the homeowners about any problems they have encountered. Look for problems common to multiple homes and start by looking at the homes that are the oldest in the neighborhood. In addition, hiring a competent Home Inspector to inspect the house as its being built, or at the very least, once the house is completed, is a decision smart buyer’s make.
Welcome to Texas...
Kevin Stokes
REGISTERED
This is our builder to a T. When we first started having issues, he claims that he consulted an engineer and the engineer recommenced we place soaker hoses not around the perimeter of the foundation, but down the center line of piers in the crawl space. When we tore this "idea" apart, his simple reply was "come on, this was a cheap house." True, it is not a large home and is not in a planned subdivision, but you still expect a properly designed foundation on a small home that costs 200k.
mark handler
SAWHORSE
Because you have contractors cutting corners.
There is nothing wrong with that, contractors need to value engineer, but they also need to take responsibility for defects.
Your State government, just reaffirmed yesterday, with the election, does not care about you......
JCraver
REGISTERED
The alternative is Californication, and nobody but Californian's want that...
Be clear that expansive soils do not just occur in Texas., California has significant areas of expansive soil but we do not have the same number of problems. We understand what needs to be done.
It is easy to take cheap shots at California but look at our economy. Also consider that in spite of some problems, we probably have one of the more effective systems of building regulation.
One of the problems we have is that too many people want to live here. So if it is so bad why do so many people want to live here?
It is easy to take cheap shots at California but look at our economy. Also consider that in spite of some problems, we probably have one of the more effective systems of building regulation.
One of the problems we have is that too many people want to live here. So if it is so bad why do so many people want to live here?
Some really expensive buildings have been built on poor foundations.
https://www.businessinsider.com/is-millennium-tower-safe-still-leaning-sinking-2017-9
Its just not homes built by corner-cutting home builders. The earth is not as "terra firma" as most people assume. The home builder made an assumption that the earth at the footing elevation was stable. That assumption allowed him to be competitive in a market where builders are usually evaluated (in part) on dollars per square foot. For homes, it is rarely about the concealed details and more about "the look".
https://www.businessinsider.com/is-millennium-tower-safe-still-leaning-sinking-2017-9
Its just not homes built by corner-cutting home builders. The earth is not as "terra firma" as most people assume. The home builder made an assumption that the earth at the footing elevation was stable. That assumption allowed him to be competitive in a market where builders are usually evaluated (in part) on dollars per square foot. For homes, it is rarely about the concealed details and more about "the look".
ADAguy
REGISTERED
Its the "nation of Texas" ruled by caliber, not laws.,
One person's response:::
https://soundcloud.com/thipro/fighting-a-builder-when-your-structure-is-failing-11-10-18
Builders do make mistakes and as a homeowner you do have the power to challenge them to make it right. The Texas Residential Construction Liability Act protects homeowners. Jim encourages this listener to get a new lawyer and fight for their investment.
https://soundcloud.com/thipro/fighting-a-builder-when-your-structure-is-failing-11-10-18
Builders do make mistakes and as a homeowner you do have the power to challenge them to make it right. The Texas Residential Construction Liability Act protects homeowners. Jim encourages this listener to get a new lawyer and fight for their investment.
ADAguy
REGISTERED
Ah, there is hope if Texas has such an act.
Wow! They water the footings....forever. It's a wonder that they can sell that idea. Instead of a footing deep enough...strong enough....no problem, all you need is a soaker hose? Ya I'm not believing this....it has to be made up. If it's not a hoax anyone that went along with it shouldn't complain later.
tmurray
SAWHORSE
Until today, I have never heard of foundation watering. So, instead of building something properly, you add water to the soils around the foundation to hope it fixes the inadequate design of the foundation?
We have clay based expansive soils through much of my municipality. Builders will either construct deep foundations (deep for us is 10+ feet) or remove the soils and build the pad back up with a geotechnical engineer.
We have clay based expansive soils through much of my municipality. Builders will either construct deep foundations (deep for us is 10+ feet) or remove the soils and build the pad back up with a geotechnical engineer.
ADAguy
REGISTERED
Remember, "its" Texas (smiling)
conarb
REGISTERED
Years ago I bought a book on California Building Standards that looked like an official Calfiornia publication but turned out to be written and published by an entitey that I had never heard of, it required that drip irrigation systems be installed around the perimeter and set to go off ehan it's not raining.
I know a guy who builds $5 to $10 million dollar homes in Houston, to deal with those soils he has bell bottom piers a few feet in diameter, extensive grade beam systems, and cardboard cartons under the homes, Mr Stokes has bought a $200K home not a $2 million home, my friend spends more than 200K on the steel and concrete under his homes. I fault the contractor for trying to get by that cheap, but I find it hard in this day and age that anyone would think he could buy a home for $200k, to build that cheap you would have to cut a lot of corners, you get what you pay for.
mark handler
SAWHORSE
Texas Building Code Politics
Texas policies leave home building decision to cities, whose record is mixed: Corpus Christi uses codes that reflect national standards, minus the requirement that homes be built one foot above expected 100-year-flood levels, according to the Federal Alliance for Safe Homes. Nueces County, which encompasses Corpus Christi, has no residential building code whatsoever.
The consequence of loose or non-existent codes is that storm damage is often worse than need be. “Disasters don’t have to be devastating,” said Eleanor Kitzman, who was Texas’s state insurance commissioner from 2011 to 2013 and now runs a company in South Carolina that constructs and finances coastal homes that are above code. “We can’t prevent the event, but we can mitigate the damage.”
Any proposal that would increase costs in Texas draws push back from home builders, a powerful group in a state where people despise red tape about as much as they hate taxes.
“They are not big on regulation,” said Julie Rochman, chief executive officer of the insurance institute. That skepticism about government was on display in 2013, when the state’s two senators voted against additional federal funding to clean up after Superstorm Sandy. But it can be applied selectively: Governor Greg Abbott requested federal money for Hurricane Harvey before it even made landfall.
Building codes elicit little support in Austin. At the end of this year’s state legislative session, the Texas Association of Builders posted a document boasting of its success at killing legislation it didn’t like. That included a bill that would have let cities require residential fire sprinklers, and another that would have given counties with 100,000 people or more authority over zoning, land use and oversight of building standards–something the builders’ group called “onerous.”
Ned Muñoz, vice president of regulatory affairs for the Texas Association of Builders, said cities already do a good job choosing which parts of the building code are right for them. And he argued that people who live outside of cities don’t want the higher prices that come with land-use regulations.
Muñoz said his association’s target is “unnecessary and burdensome government regulations, which increase the price of a home.”
The fight in Texas is a microcosm of a national battle. The International Code Council, a Washington nonprofit made up of government officials and industry representatives, updates its model codes every three years, inviting state and local governments to adopt them. Last year, the National Association of Home Builders boasted of its prowess at stopping the 2018 codes it didn’t like.
“Only 6 percent of the proposals that NAHB opposed made it through the committee hearings intact,” the association wrote on its blog. Some of the new codes that the home builders blocked had been proposed by the Federal Emergency Management Agency — the same agency that’s on the hook when homes collapse, flood or wash away. And when FEMA is on the hook, it’s really the taxpayer.
https://www.insurancejournal.com/news/national/2017/08/31/462844.htm
Texas policies leave home building decision to cities, whose record is mixed: Corpus Christi uses codes that reflect national standards, minus the requirement that homes be built one foot above expected 100-year-flood levels, according to the Federal Alliance for Safe Homes. Nueces County, which encompasses Corpus Christi, has no residential building code whatsoever.
The consequence of loose or non-existent codes is that storm damage is often worse than need be. “Disasters don’t have to be devastating,” said Eleanor Kitzman, who was Texas’s state insurance commissioner from 2011 to 2013 and now runs a company in South Carolina that constructs and finances coastal homes that are above code. “We can’t prevent the event, but we can mitigate the damage.”
Any proposal that would increase costs in Texas draws push back from home builders, a powerful group in a state where people despise red tape about as much as they hate taxes.
“They are not big on regulation,” said Julie Rochman, chief executive officer of the insurance institute. That skepticism about government was on display in 2013, when the state’s two senators voted against additional federal funding to clean up after Superstorm Sandy. But it can be applied selectively: Governor Greg Abbott requested federal money for Hurricane Harvey before it even made landfall.
Building codes elicit little support in Austin. At the end of this year’s state legislative session, the Texas Association of Builders posted a document boasting of its success at killing legislation it didn’t like. That included a bill that would have let cities require residential fire sprinklers, and another that would have given counties with 100,000 people or more authority over zoning, land use and oversight of building standards–something the builders’ group called “onerous.”
Ned Muñoz, vice president of regulatory affairs for the Texas Association of Builders, said cities already do a good job choosing which parts of the building code are right for them. And he argued that people who live outside of cities don’t want the higher prices that come with land-use regulations.
Muñoz said his association’s target is “unnecessary and burdensome government regulations, which increase the price of a home.”
The fight in Texas is a microcosm of a national battle. The International Code Council, a Washington nonprofit made up of government officials and industry representatives, updates its model codes every three years, inviting state and local governments to adopt them. Last year, the National Association of Home Builders boasted of its prowess at stopping the 2018 codes it didn’t like.
“Only 6 percent of the proposals that NAHB opposed made it through the committee hearings intact,” the association wrote on its blog. Some of the new codes that the home builders blocked had been proposed by the Federal Emergency Management Agency — the same agency that’s on the hook when homes collapse, flood or wash away. And when FEMA is on the hook, it’s really the taxpayer.
https://www.insurancejournal.com/news/national/2017/08/31/462844.htm
"cardboard cartons under the homes," What's that?
No you can buy a mansion in Texas for that amount.
One reason unfortunately people are moving to Texas
conarb
REGISTERED
c
I use them under my grade beams, my Texas friend uses them under his entire homes, the idea is that heaving soils crush the cardboard so they don't crack the concrete, and I guess they eventually are eaten out by the termites. Cardboard Void Forms, all soils engineers specify them here even theough we don't have the expansive soils Texas does, I've argued with them but they scream that the grade beams will crack someday.
I use them under my grade beams, my Texas friend uses them under his entire homes, the idea is that heaving soils crush the cardboard so they don't crack the concrete, and I guess they eventually are eaten out by the termites. Cardboard Void Forms, all soils engineers specify them here even theough we don't have the expansive soils Texas does, I've argued with them but they scream that the grade beams will crack someday.
Thanks,
Looking at the product I notice that the void space is quite tall. That has me wondering what supports the slab.
A local engineer recommended six inches of 3/4” rock believing that the soil would find it’s way into the voids when the soil expands,
conarb
REGISTERED
Tiger:
The engineer's design the slabs as structural slabs spanning the grade beams, which themselves are engineered to span the piers. The whole concept is that no concrete, other than the bearing piers themselves, touch the ground so it can heave to it's heart's content without cracking beams or slabs.