Dinking Fountain vs Water Cooler

[Mule]

Do you guys allow a water cooler in place of a drinking fountain?

I don't know how a water cooler would work as far as accessabilty for wheelchair or standing.

2006 IBC B occupancy. The way I read it is that one is required but you have to provide one high one low.

 

[FredK]

No. No. No.

 

[globe trekker]

.

Mule, Yes, we allow the water coolers or even, ...bottled water [ in the individual bottles ] in place of

the water fountains. Requiring water fountains on "change of occupancies" or even small tenant

spaces is not politically digestable here. I DO know what the code requires, but sometimes that

is just not a financially attractive option for the small business owner. Essentially, we are trying

to meet the ' intent ' of the code vs. ' the letter ' of the code. It's part of that "learning to pick

my battles" thingy.

.

 

[brudgers]

.Mule, Yes, we allow the water coolers or even, ...bottled water [ in the individual bottles ] in place of

the water fountains. Requiring water fountains on "change of occupancies" or even small tenant

spaces is not politically digestable here. I DO know what the code requires, but sometimes that

is just not a financially attractive option for the small business owner. Essentially, we are trying

to meet the ' intent ' of the code vs. ' the letter ' of the code. It's part of that "learning to pick

my battles" thingy..

Who cares if it violates civil rights?

 

[Yikes]

Our California Plumbing Code, based on the 2006 Uniform Plumbing Code, requires drinking fountains in certain locations per Table 4-1. Per footnote 12 on that same table: "where food is consumed indoors, water stations may be substituted for drinking fountains." It goes on to describe that larger office buildings may need drinking fountains for employee use, but in the context of the table 4-1, there may still be interpretive room on this issue and a water station might still meet the requirement in lieu of a drinking fountain.

So in theory, if your applicant says they intend to consume food indoors (for example, and employee break room), then a water station may be a viable alternative, at least here in California.

This leads to the next question: what is a "water station"? We believe it is a facility where a container can be filled with water for drinking purposes. On the old code chat bulletin board, various people offered that this could be a domestic water sink with paper cups nearby, or bottled water, etc.

The high/low concept for drinking fountains has to do with bending over to get your mouth near the stream of water. At a water station, you don't bring your mouth to the water - - you bring the water to your mouth (via a container), so bending over, hi/low provisions are not an issue.

I personally don't think that supplying drinking water in every facility is a civil rights issue. I think it is up to the code to state when it is required. However, when drinking water is supplied, then reasonable accomodation for everyone to have access to that water IS a civil rights issue. We also believe that under the concept of equivalent facilitation in our building code, a "water station" would also need to be accessible, using forward or side reach ranges for access to controls and dispensers.

It is possible that a water cooler could be made accessible. for example, I used a water cooler last night where the cold water valve was a push-down lever, operated by very light pressure. This could be operated without grasping or pinching, etc. A container could be placed on the drain grate under the spigot, so the user would not have to hold the cup while the water is coming out.

This same water cooler had a hot-water option that had a child-proof safety latch that would NOT be considered accessible.

 

[Gene Boecker]

Ooooooo!

Yikes, you're my new hero!

 

[Yikes]

Gene, thanks but be forewarned - - I'm not a building official, so it's just an architect's opinion. Having said that, I've had several favorable rulings from various local building officials around here (So Cal) on this very issue.

One one project, a church had a kid's Sunday School building, where they always served water to the kids with a mobile serving cart in each room that had a water dispenser with spigot, paper cups, and some cookies. This met the requirement of footnote 12 "where food is consumed indoors...". The building official required the church to write a letter for his file, stating their intent to maintain this system as a condition of code compliance / occupancy of the building.

 

[brudgers]

A sink is a drinking fountain, black is white, up is down...and a cup doesn't require grasping.

Either that or my nine year old is correct and it's opposite day.

 

[SCBO1]

Mule,

Weird code, after you do a plan review and theres no fountain, they then get a choice of a fountain or water cooler?

Two years later when your in the building and your parched, the coolers gone! I heard the 2009 code sez you got to provide a chicken salad sandwich and no-fat chips! Is this true?

 

[texas transplant]

Mule,

410.1 Approval.

Drinking fountains shall conform to ASME A112.19.1M, ASME A112.19.2M or ASME A112.19.9M and water coolers shall conform to ARI 1010. Drinking fountains and water coolers shall conform to NSF 61, Section 9. Where water is served in restaurants, drinking fountains shall not be required. In other occupancies, where drinking fountains are required, water coolers or bottled water dispensers shall be permitted to be substituted for not more than 50 percent of the required drinking fountains.

Last line of the above section from 2006 IPC gives some leeway to bottled water dispensers.

 

[brudgers]

Mule,410.1 Approval.

Drinking fountains shall conform to ASME A112.19.1M, ASME A112.19.2M or ASME A112.19.9M and water coolers shall conform to ARI 1010. Drinking fountains and water coolers shall conform to NSF 61, Section 9. Where water is served in restaurants, drinking fountains shall not be required. In other occupancies, where drinking fountains are required, water coolers or bottled water dispensers shall be permitted to be substituted for not more than 50 percent of the required drinking fountains.

Last line of the above section from 2006 IPC gives some leeway to bottled water dispensers.

Right, so long as you have one drinking fountain you comply with IPC. If that one drinking fountain is accessible you might comply with ADAAG too.

Zero drinking fountains doesn't comply with either (except for the exception in the IPC).

 

[Yikes]

Again, a California thing - -our accessiblity code (CBC chapter 11B) is written such that IF you provide a drinking fountain, it must be hi/low. For space planning purposes, there is practically no such thing as only "one" drinking fountain - - it's effectively "two": one high and one low.

Brudgers - actually, there are cups available that do not require grasping with fingers. I have friends that use them - - basically, the "handle" is large enough to put your wrist through.

As a complete aside, I have another friend whose hand was amputated two years ago up to half the forearm. He has been fitted with a prosthetic hand that has complete gripping ability for the individual fingers - -it senses minor movements in his remaining forearm muscles and each finger responds accordingly. If you saw that thing operate, you'd swear he was "The 6 million dollar man" in real life (actually, it was about $50k). Amazing technology!

 

[Mule]

Thanks for all the responses. This is actually going to be an animal clinic.

In the 2006 IBC

1109.5 Drinking fountains. Where drinking fountains are

provided on an exterior site, on a floor or within a secured area,

the drinking fountains shall be provided in accordance with

Sections 1109.5.1 and 1109.5.2.

The key word "Where"

Then you go to Chapter 29 Plumbing Fixtures and Table 2902.1 Minimum Required Plumbing Fixtures refers you to 410.1 of the IPC, the section Texas Transplant refers to, requires a minimum of 1 per 100 for a Business classification.

So now we have "one" required if the occupancy load is less than 100 per 410.1 of the IPC.

Okay so back to 1109.5. "Where"...Okay so we do have "one" drinking fountain required.

1109.5 goes on to say.

shall be provided in accordance with

Sections 1109.5.1 and 1109.5.2.

1109.5.1 Minimum number. No fewer than two drinking

fountains shall be provided. One drinking fountain shall

comply with the requirements for people who use a wheelchair

and one drinking fountain shall comply with the

requirements for standing persons.

Exception: A single drinking fountain that complies

with the requirements for people who use a wheelchair

and standing persons shall be permitted to be substituted

for two separate drinking fountains.

So 1109.5.1 specifies a minimum of "two" however the exception to 1109.5.1 allows you to go back to a single drinking fountain that complies with the requirements may be permitted.

1109.5.2 does not come into play here because the applicant is only going to provide the minimum required.

So now we are jumping back to the plumbing code Section 410 that TT posted last sentence.

In other occupancies, where drinking fountains are

required, water coolers or bottled water dispensers shall be permitted

to be substituted for not more than 50 percent of the

required drinking fountains.

Since only "one" drinking fountain is required, a water cooler or bottled water dispenser is allowed because I am not allowing the water cooler to substitute for more than 50% of the required amount.

If three drinking fountains were required then one could be a water cooler and the other two would have to be drinking fountains.

So it appears in this situation that a water cooler meets code as long as the water cooler meets 1109.5.1 Exception.

Any comments??? Do you guys agree??

 

[Yikes]

What about the dog's drinking fountain?

http://www.k9guzzler.com/

 

[vegas paul]

Yikes - that web site indicates that the dog fountain is ADA compliant... I presume that means for the operational buttons/shut-off valve. But what about disabled dogs? Don't you need TWO dog fountains??? Some dogs can't bend down that far, and I believe in equal access for all dogs... I need to adjust the dosage....

 

[FredK]

What about the dog's drinking fountain?http://www.k9guzzler.com/

Guess you haven't seen the plans for the new dog drinking fountain in the new dog park over here. Seem to recall it could fall under the swiming pool regs before it was done. Our regs say anything with water over 18 inches in depth gets regulated and this way exceeded that. Due to current budget I figure it may get changed before they decide to do it.

 

[Yikes]

Yikes - that web site indicates that the dog fountain is ADA compliant... I presume that means for the operational buttons/shut-off valve. But what about disabled dogs? Don't you need TWO dog fountains??? Some dogs can't bend down that far, and I believe in equal access for all dogs... I need to adjust the dosage....

ADA = All Doggies Allowed!

 

[Yikes]

Or perhaps within the vet's office, the regular and ADA-height toilets function for the pets like hi/low doggie drinking fountains.

 

[brudgers]

Brudgers - actually, there are cups available that do not require grasping with fingers. I have friends that use them - - basically, the "handle" is large enough to put your wrist through.

Are they stamped with "DOJ Approved?"

And which section of ADAAG allows them?

 

[brudgers]

Thanks for all the responses. This is actually going to be an animal clinic.In the 2006 IBC

1109.5 Drinking fountains. Where drinking fountains are

provided on an exterior site, on a floor or within a secured area,

the drinking fountains shall be provided in accordance with

Sections 1109.5.1 and 1109.5.2.

The key word "Where"

Then you go to Chapter 29 Plumbing Fixtures and Table 2902.1 Minimum Required Plumbing Fixtures refers you to 410.1 of the IPC, the section Texas Transplant refers to, requires a minimum of 1 per 100 for a Business classification.

So now we have "one" required if the occupancy load is less than 100 per 410.1 of the IPC.

Okay so back to 1109.5. "Where"...Okay so we do have "one" drinking fountain required.

1109.5 goes on to say.

shall be provided in accordance with

Sections 1109.5.1 and 1109.5.2.

1109.5.1 Minimum number. No fewer than two drinking

fountains shall be provided. One drinking fountain shall

comply with the requirements for people who use a wheelchair

and one drinking fountain shall comply with the

requirements for standing persons.

Exception: A single drinking fountain that complies

with the requirements for people who use a wheelchair

and standing persons shall be permitted to be substituted

for two separate drinking fountains.

So 1109.5.1 specifies a minimum of "two" however the exception to 1109.5.1 allows you to go back to a single drinking fountain that complies with the requirements may be permitted.

1109.5.2 does not come into play here because the applicant is only going to provide the minimum required.

So now we are jumping back to the plumbing code Section 410 that TT posted last sentence.

In other occupancies, where drinking fountains are

required, water coolers or bottled water dispensers shall be permitted

to be substituted for not more than 50 percent of the

required drinking fountains.

Since only "one" drinking fountain is required, a water cooler or bottled water dispenser is allowed because I am not allowing the water cooler to substitute for more than 50% of the required amount.

If three drinking fountains were required then one could be a water cooler and the other two would have to be drinking fountains.

So it appears in this situation that a water cooler meets code as long as the water cooler meets 1109.5.1 Exception.

Any comments??? Do you guys agree??

How did "a water cooler" become "a drinking fountain?"

Transubstantiation?

 

[Mule]

1109.5.2 does not come into play here because the applicant is only going to provide the minimum required.

So now we are jumping back to the plumbing code Section 410 that TT posted last sentence.

In other occupancies, where drinking fountains are

required, water coolers or bottled water dispensers shall be permittedto be substituted for not more than 50 percent of the

required drinking fountains.

 

[Yikes]

Are they stamped with "DOJ Approved?"And which section of ADAAG allows them?

1. As a matter of fact, it has the exact same kind of "DOJ Approved" stamp as you would expect to find on a drinking fountain.

2. ADAAG 4.1.3 (10). "Where only one drinking fountain is provided on a floor..."

If the code does not require a drinking fountain on a floor, and you have not provided a drinking fountain, then you are in compliance with 4.1.3 (10).

If the applicable codes do not actually require a particular facility to exist, then no facilitation for anybody is a form of equal facilitation for everybody.

Let's continue this sidetrack discussion (if necessary) in the accessibility forum.

 

[Mech]

Mule,

If you find a way to permit a single water cooler to substitute the high / low water fountain, I'd be interested. I have a building with a design occupant load of about 150 people, but an actual occupant load of only 5 (five) people and I am required to have the high / low water fountains. Seems a little ridiculous to me.

Semantics time:

Does the IBC or the IPC define drinking fountains or water coolers? I don't remember them doing so. Wikipedia lists water coolers as being both the traditional drinking fountain (bottle-less water cooler) and the 5 gallon bottled water dispensers (bottle water cooler). Elkay's site indicates to me that a water cooler is a drinking fountain with a refrigeration unit attached.

Anything from the code commentary?

 

[brudgers]

1. As a matter of fact, it has the exact same kind of "DOJ Approved" stamp as you would expect to find on a drinking fountain.2. ADAAG 4.1.3 (10). "Where only one drinking fountain is provided on a floor..."

If the code does not require a drinking fountain on a floor, and you have not provided a drinking fountain, then you are in compliance with 4.1.3 (10).

If the applicable codes do not actually require a particular facility to exist, then no facilitation for anybody is a form of equal facilitation for everybody.

Let's continue this sidetrack discussion (if necessary) in the accessibility forum.

1. There's are diagrams in ADAAG (as well as text) showing the requirements for drinking fountains. That's the best DOJ approval one can have.

2. Do you also apply the "if it's not required by code then it doesn't need to be accessible" logic elsewhere? BTW, I've never seen a code mandated second story.