• Welcome to The Building Code Forum

    Your premier resource for building code knowledge.

    This forum remains free to the public thanks to the generous support of our Sawhorse Members and Corporate Sponsors. Their contributions help keep this community thriving and accessible.

    Want enhanced access to expert discussions and exclusive features? Learn more about the benefits here.

    Ready to upgrade? Log in and upgrade now.

Do you think an Inground Swimming Pool Should Have to fall under Zoning Review

F

frustratedinaz

REGISTERED
Joined
Oct 29, 2024
Messages
14
Location
Arizona
The County is telling me that a swimming pool built in 2019 using erroneously issued plans does not fall under zoning but per their own zoning regulations I don't understand how it can't. As such I feel it must be forced to go before a zoning review board when it's closer than 4' from the property line allowed for detached accessory buildings.

My arguments are that it has to go before the zoning review board for a variance per their own zoning ordinances despite what their practice may be for approving them.
1.) Their own Zoning Inspector/Code Compliance Supervisor even said so at the beginning of the Code Compliance Case.
2.) Pools are issued building permits and tracked under the same classifications as a ramada in their monthly spreadsheets. As such they must fall under zoning as they are not listed as exempt.
3.) Per their ordinance obtaining a zoning clearance is part of the county's permitting process and is the first step of the application process to obtain a building permit. And since they do not exempt any specific "building" permits in the ordinance a pool permit should require the same zoning clearance as a garage, carport, accessory building and so on.
4.) Inground swimming pools are definitely a structure as they are constructed and require a fixed location on the ground. And per below in one section they are exempt from the structure calculations for the buildable area.
5.) While they do not define "improvement" even if the county wants to fight and say it's not a structure it's most definitely an improvement and you can sure bet that with the over $30 million dollars per year in pool valuations per their permits that they are taxed.
Their own assessor's site lists this info for improvements.
What does “improvement” refer to when I have not done any improvements to my property?
Improvement is the actual structure(s) already in place, that are valued on a yearly basis to keep properties close to current market value, with current building costs.

What are yard improvements or site additions?
Yard improvements or site additions consist of concrete, block walls, chain link fence and/or gates, detached garages, storage buildings, pools, spas and guest houses and any other improvements not associated with the main structure.

Per their own Zoning Ordinance

Definitions

Building means any structure used or intended for supporting, housing or sheltering any use or occupancy. For the purpose of this title, the terms "building" and "structure" shall be treated as though they are synonymous, unless stated otherwise. (See Structure.) A structure having a roof supported by columns and used exclusively for the shading of livestock and not for housing livestock shall not be considered a building and shall not need to conform to setback requirements that apply to buildings used to house livestock.

Setback means the minimum distance required between a structure and a property line of a parcel of land or between a structure and a proposed street line. For the purpose of this title, the terms "setback" and "yard" shall be treated as though they are synonymous, unless stated otherwise.

Structure means anything constructed or erected the use of which requires location on the ground or attachment to something having a location on the ground. This definition shall include, for the purpose of this title, a manufactured home, mobile home and accessories thereto. For the purpose of this title, the terms "building" and "structure" shall be treated as though they are synonymous, unless stated otherwise. (See Building.)

Zoning clearance means verification by the county that the proposed use or proposed building, structure or improvement meets the requirements of this title.

Zoning clearance and permits.
A. It shall be the duty of the county zoning inspector, and all county departments, officials and public employees vested with the duty or authority to issue zoning clearance, permits or licenses, to enforce the provisions of this title and issue no such zoning clearance, license or permit for uses, buildings or purposes where the same would be in conflict with the regulations/provisions of this title and any such zoning clearance, license or permit, if issued in conflict with the provisions of this title, shall be null and void.
B. From and after the effective date of the ordinance codified in this title, it shall be unlawful to erect, construct, reconstruct, alter or use any building or structure within any portion of the unincorporated area of the county covered by this title without first obtaining a zoning clearance and/or building permit. If a permit is not required, all other regulations/provisions of this title shall be observed.
C. Obtaining a zoning clearance is part of the county's permitting process and is the first step of the application process to obtain a building permit (including an installation permit). If a building or installation permit is not required, a zoning clearance is still required for the land use and all other regulations/provisions of this title shall be observed.
D. No building permit shall be required for repairs or improvements of a value not exceeding $500.00.
E. It is unlawful to use any land within any portion of the unincorporated area of the county without obtaining a zoning clearance.

And for the smallest size class of residential properties they specifically exempt the swimming pool "structure" from the buildable area calculation.
Buildable area: Not to exceed 40 percent of the lot, including all structures, except swimming pools.


Help prove me right or wrong.
 
It sounds like this is not your pool?
frustratedinaz said:
My arguments are that it has to go before the zoning review board for a variance per their own zoning ordinances despite what their practice may be for approving them.
1.) Their own Zoning Inspector/Code Compliance Supervisor even said so at the beginning of the Code Compliance Case.
Click to expand...
Is this part of a larger case?

You may be right that they should have done that, unless they have another code section they are leaning on. The zoning ordinances are local, so it is hard for us to tell without having the time to find and go through the entire zoning code for your area to see if there is a section that permits them to do what they did.

Are you suing them to get a writ of mandamus?
 
In my world, a swimming pool is not a building, but swimming pools are subject to zoning review and approval. However, the regulation you quoted has an interesting twist:

Building means any structure used or intended for supporting, housing or sheltering any use or occupancy. For the purpose of this title, the terms "building" and "structure" shall be treated as though they are synonymous, unless stated otherwise. (See Structure.) A structure having a roof supported by columns and used exclusively for the shading of livestock and not for housing livestock shall not be considered a building and shall not need to conform to setback requirements that apply to buildings used to house livestock.

. . .

Structure means anything constructed or erected the use of which requires location on the ground or attachment to something having a location on the ground. This definition shall include, for the purpose of this title, a manufactured home, mobile home and accessories thereto. For the purpose of this title, the terms "building" and "structure" shall be treated as though they are synonymous, unless stated otherwise. (See Building.)
Click to expand...

An in-ground swimming pool is a structure. Since the regulation makes "building" and "structure" synonymous, I don't see any way anyone can argue that a swimming pool is exempt from regulation.
 
Many jurisdictions allow swimming pools to be built at a property line. Swimming pools are not a fire hazard and are usually not visible behind a fence.
 
jar546 said:
Every single municipality that I worked in has setback requirements for pools. This is normal.
Click to expand...
East coast has way fewer pools than the West coast. Let’s hear from the California folks.
 
Thanks so much for the replies. If anyone would like to research the specifics I would appreciate it and you can message me and I'll give you a link to the Counties online Zoning Ordinance.

On fact I forgot to include was in our zoning they do not mention a maximum buildable area under the site development standards.

In the zoning in where this happened we are the highest zoned residential property in the County. So hence we have the largest minimum lot size, the most restrictions, and largest setbacks for front and rear yards. All lots are over 1 acre and vast majority likely have their own septic. Majority of the houses do not have fences around the entire property.

It's part of a much larger case but not anything I'll likely be able to take to court. It's been a 16 month long fight already.

I've lost too much money(and more importantly my faith in humanity) already so unless a nice lawyer wants to tackle it for free for me I'll continue to plug away with Public Record Requests and gathering facts until I have them all for a full story. And then turn it over to whoever wants to run with it and hope that it forces the County to not allow this to happen to anyone ever again. So that the County requires the actual setbacks on permits not just the minimum 3', 4', 4', 4.

This was never about the money(which we have lost a ton) it was about doing what's right. I trusted the County would follow their own zoning and building codes and in my eyes they haven't and they have even broken more.

I promise when I can publish all the facts I'll post a link up here because it's going to be a very interesting read I think.

I'll post up another question or two in the building code forumn as they are related to building codes not zoning.
 

Sorry Ice but Ca is not #1​

​

Number of Swimming Pools by State​

According to estimates from Statistica, Florida (1.59 million) and California (1.34 million) lead the nation with the highest number of swimming pools. At the other end of the spectrum, Wyoming has the fewest, with just 3,000 pools.

When factoring in population, Arizona, Florida, and New Mexico boast the highest number of pools per capita. In Arizona, there is one swimming pool for every 13 people. By contrast, states like Wyoming, Utah, and the Dakotas have the fewest pools per capita, reflecting different climate preferences and population distribution.

renosys.com

Swimming Pool Statistics & Industry Insights (2024)

Discover key swimming pool statistics for 2024, including market size, costs, safety data, and pool distribution across the U.S.
renosys.com renosys.com
 
Thanks so much for those facts that might come in useful. Funny in this county in Arizona zoning regulates firewood to be 4' from the property line but not pools they say.
 
frustratedinaz said:
Thanks so much for those facts that might come in useful. Funny in this county in Arizona zoning regulates firewood to be 4' from the property line but not pools they say.
Click to expand...
That kinda makes sense. Firewood is flammable (literally meant to be set ablaze) where a swimming pool is filled with water. If the firewood catches fire, keeping it a distance away from the property line would help a bit in containment.
 
Thanks never thought of it from that aspect. I just find it hard to believe that say a $4,000 metal carport would require zoning yet a $40,000 inground pool doesn't.
 
frustratedinaz said:
Thanks never thought of it from that aspect. I just find it hard to believe that say a $4,000 metal carport would require zoning yet a $40,000 inground pool doesn't.
Click to expand...
The city I work in (in California) only mentions pools a few time in their municipal codes. Exactly 20 times according to their search feature. Nothing about location in ours. We just need to enclose it in a fence so that it isn't visible from an adjacent property (regular 6' fence is sufficient). As far as I can tell, we essentially just need to follow the requirements of Section 3109 in our state's Building Code.
 
Yankee Chronicler said:
In my world, a swimming pool is not a building, but swimming pools are subject to zoning review and approval. However, the regulation you quoted has an interesting twist:



An in-ground swimming pool is a structure. Since the regulation makes "building" and "structure" synonymous, I don't see any way anyone can argue that a swimming pool is exempt from regulation.
Click to expand...
You might be onto something. They finally released their draft of the new proposed zoning ordinance for review and now the definitions are:

"Building" means any Structure with a roof and walls used or intended for supporting, Housing or sheltering any Use or occupancy.

"Structure" means anything constructed or erected the Use of which requires location on the ground or attachment to something having a location on the ground. This definition shall include, for the purpose of this Title, a Manufactured Home, Mobile Home and accessories thereto.
 
Two things that are not clear to me.
1. How far awy from the property line is the pool?
2. What setback does the jurisdiction require for a swimming pool and a property line.
3, I know it was supposed to be two things and now it is three. What is your actual complaint about the swimming pool? On a property line or five feet away from a property line doesn't change much as far as the impact of a pool on the neighbors.
 
1.) 16" is what they told the County for the supposed "Modification" they gave them on the building side but after they tore down half the new wall the built again on our property and cut off the footers along the other half they said it was 13" and I'm guessing that is to the coping not to the waters edge so likely 12" or less.

2a.) When built(based on 2012 IRC with modification) in 2019 the building code used the County amended to include for pools 4' from the waters edge to the property line or fence. Also the permits when built required "A minimum 30” uninterrupted walking surface shall be provided around the pool for rescue purposes." but I can't find that in the code. It's also still permitted under this as I'm told the Building Official did not revoke the permit as the notice of violation said.
2b.) The current code (2018 ISPSC with modifications) if they were forced to permit it now added this wording.
“The water’s edge shall not be less than 4’ from any property line or less than 3° from a structure without Engineered design.” Along with modifying the 20" to 30" for the barrier wall distance to the waters edge in the ISPSC section 3.5.2.10. So to me is has to at least be 30" back from the required barrier wall if they do claim it's engineered to be closer than 4'.
Here's the link to the standard pool code since I'm not supposed to quote it I guess.

CHAPTER 3 GENERAL COMPLIANCE - 2018 INTERNATIONAL SWIMMING POOL AND SPA CODE (ISPSC)

ICC Digital Codes is the largest provider of model codes, custom codes and standards used worldwide to construct safe, sustainable, affordable and resilient structures.
codes.iccsafe.org codes.iccsafe.org

3.) It very much devalues the land. This is 1.25 acres of vacant land with mountain views and I've allowed 1 person to look at it that was looking for land and he did say that it does take away from the lot and feels like we don't own that portion of the property.

But to me it's about doing what's right. The Building Official per both codes is authorized and directed to enforce the provisions of the code.
In the 2012 IRC

CHAPTER 1 SCOPE AND ADMINISTRATION - 2012 INTERNATIONAL RESIDENTIAL CODE (IRC)

ICC Digital Codes is the largest provider of model codes, custom codes and standards used worldwide to construct safe, sustainable, affordable and resilient structures.
codes.iccsafe.org codes.iccsafe.org

In the 2018 ISPCS

CHAPTER 1 SCOPE AND ADMINISTRATION - 2018 INTERNATIONAL SWIMMING POOL AND SPA CODE (ISPSC)

ICC Digital Codes is the largest provider of model codes, custom codes and standards used worldwide to construct safe, sustainable, affordable and resilient structures.
codes.iccsafe.org codes.iccsafe.org
 
frustratedinaz said:
he did say that it does take away from the lot
Click to expand...
I can understand that some people would not want to live next door to a swimming pool as there is usually the noise of people having fun, especially if those people are children, There is a swimming pool approximately 200' from my front door. They have parties with music and children. The loud music can be curtailed but prepubescent little girls are another story. Anyway, your problem appears to be the presence of the pool and not how far away it might be from a nonexistent front door. I doubt that you will find the help that you need at the Building Code Forum. Now I have been mistaken about that before so do keep trying.
 
My hope was that I find people on this forumn people who are more knowledgeable than I am in this field when it comes to zoning and building codes.

Which I know I already have. Everyone who has posted has given me something to think about. So I thank everyone for their comments.

My hope is I can find people who can prove me wrong. I want to know my facts and if I'm wrong I want to know why. I've pretty much researched this long before I posted.

I wasn't even thinking about the flammable aspect of the wood but more how silly it seams to have a code for 1 out of 1000 people in the area as opposed to 1 out of 13.

Again my problem is about doing what's right. It's that the very person who is authorized and directed to enforce the codes won't do it in my eyes and I would have to think yours. Prove to me how a Building Official can NOT enforce clearly defined setbacks as well as clearly defined safety based clearances in the BUILDING CODES. It's about the breaks and delays given to the one who actually broke the law when we are the one's who suffered the largest financial losses and emotional tolls.

So I'm trying to prove that it has to go before the zoning review because at least then I get a chance to have a say. And they know that and the Code Compliance/Zoning Inspector said the neighbor would likely not get a variance because it was self-imposed at the very start of this.

I'm hoping the building inspectors or building officials on this site are the ones who really care about their profession and would call out something being down wrong in their profession. Just as I would have done when I was a practicing mechanical engineer. Just as my father would have done both in his profession and on the Town Board he was on for a bit.

I've helped so many people through the years that I usually luck out and have people help me back when I need it most. Just as I was about to give up this fight I went for a sunrise pontoon ride at my parents and I was so mad at the world and wondering why I fight the hard fights. Wondering why nobody was out enjoying the calm waters that 20+ years ago I fought the Property Owners and the Town Board to protect the rights provided by the State of Wisconsin to waterski from sunrise to sunset on the lake I grew up on even though I was not an active water-skier myself anymore. And then here comes a boat pulling a slalom skier and they were pretty darn good. It brought tears to my eyes and then I asked around and posted on Facebook and was told it was a group in their mid 70's out skiing most mornings that I probably saw which really made me proud. But it turned out to be a different group in their mid 60's.

So apparently 20 years ago I was mistaken in thinking I was fighting for future generations of kids to enjoy skiing the calm mornings on the lake as I so loved as a kid. When in reality I guess I fought for the generation that created myself and my friends and the generation that we looked up to as young skiers in our ski club back then.

So if this peaked anyone's interest enough that you would like to give me a private message so I can ask about a couple things I can't post yet let me know. Especially if you are a Building Official I would love to pick your brain with a couple private questions at this point. I'm still awaiting some public record requests to make sure my assumptions are correct.
 
Depending on the depth and size of any hole in the ground there could be a negative effect on the foundation of a building/structure that is located in close proximity to the hole. A swimming pool is a hole in the ground with water in it.

There are a lot of factors that would need to be known before a determination could be made if it would negatively affect an adjacent building. Types of soils, seismic zone, depth of pool, depth of foundation to name a few
 
frustratedinaz said:
Building Official ... BUILDING CODES.
Click to expand...

SECTION 101
SCOPE AND GENERAL REQUIREMENTS
[A] 101.2 Scope. The provisions of this code shall apply to
the construction, alteration, relocation, enlargement, replacement,
repair, equipment, use and occupancy, location,
maintenance, removal and demolition of every building or
structure or any appurtenances connected or attached to such
buildings or structures.

SECTION 104
DUTIES AND POWERS OF BUILDING OFFICIAL
IA] 104.1 General. The building official is hereby authorized
and directed to enforce the provisions of this code. The building
official shall have the authority to render interpretations
of this code and to adopt policies and procedures in order to
clarify the application of its provisions. Such interpretations,
policies and procedures shall be in compliance with the intent
and purpose of this code. Such policies and procedures shall
not have the effect of waiving requirements specifically
provided for in this code.

SECTION 202
DEFINITIONS
[A] STRUCTURE. That which is built or constructed.



There are some building code references for you. Seems to me a swimming pool is a "structure", therefore it falls within the scope and duty of the building official. As others have said, there may be structural issues with building too close to another property, so that should be considered.

The unfortunate part here is that it will come down to will power. Even if you are right and righteous, do you have the will power to pursue this, and does the council/commission/manager in charge of making these kinds of decisions have the will power to make the tough decision? I don't know.
 
Joe.B said:
SECTION 101
SCOPE AND GENERAL REQUIREMENTS
[A] 101.2 Scope. The provisions of this code shall apply to
the construction, alteration, relocation, enlargement, replacement,
repair, equipment, use and occupancy, location,
maintenance, removal and demolition of every building or
structure or any appurtenances connected or attached to such
buildings or structures.

SECTION 104
DUTIES AND POWERS OF BUILDING OFFICIAL
IA] 104.1 General. The building official is hereby authorized
and directed to enforce the provisions of this code. The building
official shall have the authority to render interpretations
of this code and to adopt policies and procedures in order to
clarify the application of its provisions. Such interpretations,
policies and procedures shall be in compliance with the intent
and purpose of this code. Such policies and procedures shall
not have the effect of waiving requirements specifically
provided for in this code.

SECTION 202
DEFINITIONS
[A] STRUCTURE. That which is built or constructed.



There are some building code references for you. Seems to me a swimming pool is a "structure", therefore it falls within the scope and duty of the building official. As others have said, there may be structural issues with building too close to another property, so that should be considered.

The unfortunate part here is that it will come down to will power. Even if you are right and righteous, do you have the will power to pursue this, and does the council/commission/manager in charge of making these kinds of decisions have the will power to make the tough decision? I don't know.
Click to expand...
Thanks those are the codes I've been looking at and that's my understanding.

We'll I've fought for over a year so no giving up now I guess. You would think they might get the County might get a hint I don't give up easily when I personally flew 1700 miles to dig up the property line in 100 degree heat and have the survey to prove that once again even after they closed the case the original column was still on our property and the new wall and especially the new footers were 16" onto our property again.

But I was told they can't enforce that because the wall was only 3/4" on and that discrepancy might be which side of the stake you tie the line to. And they can't enforce the footers below the ground. But in our state without a shared wall agreement you have to be 100% on your side. That's what I'm dealing with.

And when the closed the case the wall was 2" off our property (per what I heard was a string line on tied on the other side of a bush with a rock on it so cars could drive across it). This line is about 275 feet long and when I flew out for the survey

Oh but it's gets even better. Their own Fence and Walls Brochure states this
Also make absolutely sure that your fence is on YOUR property. You may want to consider having a survey of your property completed to clearly indicate your
property lines before you start building your new fence!

That's just the tip of the iceberg on just the pool barrier wall and some of the inspections by the County.

So in my eyes they definitely don't have that will power as it was an easy decision from the get go. I gave them all the facts, a documented survey, you name it. I've given them all the engineering reasons why it shouldn't be allowed and one is it's at the bottom of the hill with probably 1.5 acres draining down to it and their was signs of erosions on the old fence. Now you have the actual edge of the pool that must be within 2" of the property line.

Lesson learned never trust your neighbor even if you think you are friends and definitely don't trust your building department because it's right in their documentation that for a pool pre gunite inspection they "verify setbacks".
 
First off I'm going to be straight forward and say that I've been fighting our County Building Department and especially the Building Official over not enforcing the building and safety codes. It's a long story and I'll post it all up here when I can because it's extremely interesting but for now it involves a pool that was erroneously issued and built and the County is ignoring the building and safety setbacks as specifically amended to the version of the standard building codes.

But I'm hoping to find people honest about their profession like me and want to hear the facts as you see them so I better understand what I'm talking about as I'm a programmer and mechanical engineer.

So my question is if does your jurisdiction require actual setbacks to be reported on the permits for single family residences?

What about for inground swimming pools?

Do you know of any building codes that would cover this as it appears my County uses the same minimum setbacks for all inground pool permits?

Your pool is 4' from the property line that's what appears to be on your permit. 50 feet setback it's still 4' on the permit from all the records I have been given.
 
I can pipe up without exposin' myself too much because I'm a Canadian.
We do things ... maybe differently?
I can tell you in our shop, the Development Officer looks at zoning/setbacks and a site plan is required that conforms to this. If the BO sees violations, we can grind things to a halt.
Not sure how much more I can chime in.
 
Inspector Gadget said:
I can pipe up without exposin' myself too much because I'm a Canadian.
We do things ... maybe differently?
I can tell you in our shop, the Development Officer looks at zoning/setbacks and a site plan is required that conforms to this. If the BO sees violations, we can grind things to a halt.
Not sure how much more I can chime in.
Click to expand...
Thanks and I'm guessing you don't compare it to the GIS system or anything. You're just going off the plans submitted? So if a lot is shown as 300' wide and it's actually 200' nobody catches that.

In this case it all looked legit on the plans for setbacks for the pool.

Just nobody checked it if actually was and the 17' setback on the pool plans listed as 4' on the pool permit greatly exceeded 10' setback on the house permit. From my understanding their standard operating procedure they just created since this all started even basically instructions them to just leave the 3',4',4',4' in their app when processing the permit.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top