• Welcome to The Building Code Forum

    Your premier resource for building code knowledge.

    This forum remains free to the public thanks to the generous support of our Sawhorse Members and Corporate Sponsors. Their contributions help keep this community thriving and accessible.

    Want enhanced access to expert discussions and exclusive features? Learn more about the benefits here.

    Ready to upgrade? Log in and upgrade now.

Does a handrail have to project into the stair?

Handrails are allowed to sit over a wall, they have always been able to be set like that.

Currently going through the Part A 2024 Code cycle there are I believe 3 proposals to limit that distance from the vertical end of the steps or ramp, all 3 failed in committee.

But unless there is a local amendment in S/F or CA, the model code is fine with it.
 
tbz said:
Handrails are allowed to sit over a wall, they have always been able to be set like that.

Currently going through the Part A 2024 Code cycle there are I believe 3 proposals to limit that distance from the vertical end of the steps or ramp, all 3 failed in committee.

But unless there is a local amendment in S/F or CA, the model code is fine with it.
Click to expand...
Thank you!
 
huancp, I see you are based in San Francisco, so for the sake of this response I will assume your stair is in a California jurisdiction. Handrails need to comply with both CBC chapter 10 for Means of Egress and (assuming this is not a private dwelling) CBC 11B for accessibility.

1623905888936.png
CBC 11B-505.5 says: Handrails may be located in a recess if the recess is 3" maximum deep...
What your detail shows is hand rails essentially recessed 3" as measured from the edge of the walking surface / face of side wall of the stairs to centerline of the handrail, which means the outer edge of the smallest (1.25") allowable handrail would be recessed at least 3 5/8", which is too far away to meet CBC 11B-505.5.
One might even interpret "recess maximum 3" deep" to mean the back wall of the recess would be 3" deep, which really means the side of the handrail must be immediately adjacent to the walking surface to comply with CBC 11B.

1623898250325.png

The detail that can fix this problem requires the post-to-handrail supports to offset the handrail so it is immediately adjacent (or slightly encroaching) to the path-of-travel, something like this:

1623905123237.png
 
Last edited:
Yikes, nice local modification pick from model code.

Here is my question though
  • The section of the CBC you quote notes "Handrails can be located in a recess" it does not say that recess is from edge,
  • per the written text I would venture and argue that the vertical line of the edge does not represent anything behind being recessed
    • The design is full open air with no recess of any kind
    • in technical terms the handrail is set back, not recessed as it does not have an over hang that is at least 18" above.
Do you have an interp from Cali that is explicit that it is required for a setback that is not recessed within a wall?
 
As stated by TBZ

1623928913213.png1623929035016.png
11B-505.10 Handrail Extensions
Handrail gripping surfaces shall extend beyond and in the same direction of stair flights and ramp runs in accordance with Section 11B-505.10.
11B-505.10.2 Top Extension at Stairs
At the top of a stair flight, handrails shall extend horizontally above the landing for 12 inches (305 mm) minimum beginning directly above the first riser nosing. Extensions shall return to a wall, guard, or the landing surface, or shall be continuous to the handrail of an adjacent stair flight.
11B-505.10.3 Bottom Extension at Stairs
At the bottom of a stair flight, handrails shall extend at the slope of the stair flight for a horizontal distance equal to one tread depth beyond the last riser nosing. The horizontal extension of a handrail shall be 12 inches (305 mm) long minimum and a height equal to that of the sloping portion of the handrail as measured above the stair nosings. Extension shall return to a wall, guard, or the landing surface, or shall be continuous to the handrail of an adjacent stair flight.
 
tbz, I don't have an official interpretation from California, and I wasn't on the technical committees when they added this language. There was a correction by a CASp on this very issue on one of my projects, and their argument went something like this:
  • If the code truly is silent on this, then what constitutes an acceptable reach range limit from the edge of the walking surface to the handrail? Six inches? One foot? Ten feet away from the stair?
  • 504.6 says "stairs shall HAVE handrails..."
  • 505.1 says "Handrails provided ALONG walking surfaces..."
  • 505.2 says "Handrails shall be provided ON both sides of stairs and ramps."
The words in caps above, especially "ALONG", were interpreted by the CASp to mean immediate adjacency, with 11B-505.5 describing the limits to how far away a handrail could be from the stair edge and sill be considered "ALONG".

I welcome any/all alternative explanations as to what could be considered an acceptable outer reach range limit.
 
I agree with Yikes that it is not a recess. However, egress width is measured above the handrails, so anything at or below the handrails can project 4-1/2 inches into the stairway width. My interpretation is that the stair-side face of the handrail must be flush with the required egress width or project up to 4-1/2 inches into the egress width.

If the handrail shown in the drawings has an outside diameter of 1-1/2 inches, then the projection is 3-3/4 inches (3 inches to center of handrail plus 3/4 inch to the far side of the handrail) which is less than the 4-1/2-inch projection permitted. Thus the location of the handrail on top of the wall as shown is acceptable.

However, if these handrails are located in California, the extensions that Mark has shown need to be added.
 
Yikes said:
tbz, I don't have an official interpretation from California, and I wasn't on the technical committees when they added this language. There was a correction by a CASp on this very issue on one of my projects, and their argument went something like this:
  • If the code truly is silent on this, then what constitutes an acceptable reach range limit from the edge of the walking surface to the handrail? Six inches? One foot? Ten feet away from the stair?
  • 504.6 says "stairs shall HAVE handrails..."
  • 505.1 says "Handrails provided ALONG walking surfaces..."
  • 505.2 says "Handrails shall be provided ON both sides of stairs and ramps."
The words in caps above, especially "ALONG", were interpreted by the CASp to mean immediate adjacency, with 11B-505.5 describing the limits to how far away a handrail could be from the stair edge and sill be considered "ALONG".

I welcome any/all alternative explanations as to what could be considered an acceptable outer reach range limit.
Click to expand...

Yikes said:
huancp, I see you are based in San Francisco, so for the sake of this response I will assume your stair is in a California jurisdiction. Handrails need to comply with both CBC chapter 10 for Means of Egress and (assuming this is not a private dwelling) CBC 11B for accessibility.

View attachment 7990
CBC 11B-505.5 says: Handrails may be located in a recess if the recess is 3" maximum deep...
What your detail shows is hand rails essentially recessed 3" as measured from the edge of the walking surface / face of side wall of the stairs to centerline of the handrail, which means the outer edge of the smallest (1.25") allowable handrail would be recessed at least 3 5/8", which is too far away to meet CBC 11B-505.5.
One might even interpret "recess maximum 3" deep" to mean the back wall of the recess would be 3" deep, which really means the side of the handrail must be immediately adjacent to the walking surface to comply with CBC 11B.

View attachment 7988

The detail that can fix this problem requires the post-to-handrail supports to offset the handrail so it is immediately adjacent (or slightly encroaching) to the path-of-travel, something like this:

View attachment 7989
Click to expand...

Yikes, thanks for the info. I am in the Bay Area. I am basically trying to build a handrail similar to this which is actually in the same space that I am working on. It was somehow approved back in 2017.

Also, how did you get the images directly into your post? I only see options for linking from another website.
 
Yikes said:
tbz, I don't have an official interpretation from California, and I wasn't on the technical committees when they added this language. There was a correction by a CASp on this very issue on one of my projects, and their argument went something like this:
  • If the code truly is silent on this, then what constitutes an acceptable reach range limit from the edge of the walking surface to the handrail? Six inches? One foot? Ten feet away from the stair?
  • 504.6 says "stairs shall HAVE handrails..."
  • 505.1 says "Handrails provided ALONG walking surfaces..."
  • 505.2 says "Handrails shall be provided ON both sides of stairs and ramps."
The words in caps above, especially "ALONG", were interpreted by the CASp to mean immediate adjacency, with 11B-505.5 describing the limits to how far away a handrail could be from the stair edge and sill be considered "ALONG".

I welcome any/all alternative explanations as to what could be considered an acceptable outer reach range limit.
Click to expand...
I think I said like 9.5" like an escalator...all of the 2024 proposals were much less...
 
huancp said:
Also, how did you get the images directly into your post? I only see options for linking from another website.
Click to expand...
I am using a Windows PC. I can just paste (Control + V) an image while I am typing.

When I saw your original image, I used the Windows snipping tool. In windows, go to the search bar and type "Snipping Tool". You should be able to launch the app from that.
When the app is launched, click "new" and highlight the area on your screen that you want copied.
It will copy it to your clipboard, and give you an opportunity to mark it up as well.
 
Yikes said:
tbz, I don't have an official interpretation from California, and I wasn't on the technical committees when they added this language. There was a correction by a CASp on this very issue on one of my projects, and their argument went something like this:
  • If the code truly is silent on this, then what constitutes an acceptable reach range limit from the edge of the walking surface to the handrail? Six inches? One foot? Ten feet away from the stair?
  • 504.6 says "stairs shall HAVE handrails..."
  • 505.1 says "Handrails provided ALONG walking surfaces..."
  • 505.2 says "Handrails shall be provided ON both sides of stairs and ramps."
The words in caps above, especially "ALONG", were interpreted by the CASp to mean immediate adjacency, with 11B-505.5 describing the limits to how far away a handrail could be from the stair edge and sill be considered "ALONG".

I welcome any/all alternative explanations as to what could be considered an acceptable outer reach range limit.
Click to expand...
  • The IBC is silent on this and I tend to go with industry standards when something is silent.
    • The industry standard is to build walls between 6" - 12" wide between ramps and stairs in the exterior realm
      • The vast major majority of the country and federal projects continue to install handrails in the center of curbing and walls and there is no shown problems of use with this standard after decades of modern tracking
    • The code has established the walkline on stairs to be 12" inward from stair edge, based on the most limiting containment which is walls.
      • Thus, with a maximum 4.5" inward projection allowed, the handrail space is changed 7.5" to 9.25" for use, (Min Max handrail designs minuses from the 12"), thus falling in range with escalator placement as max.
The code says along, for the travel placement, yes, but this is a general location not an absolute and the code is not specific restricting to on the stairs and ramps, thus to require within the exact confines of the ramp or stairway walking surface to be a local interp not within the code, as there are plenty of documents showing it is compliant to be offset.
 
Per my previous post, this is how I interpret the handrail location requirements:
Stair Handrail.png
 
tbz said:
Yikes, nice local modification pick from model code.

Here is my question though
  • The section of the CBC you quote notes "Handrails can be located in a recess" it does not say that recess is from edge,
  • per the written text I would venture and argue that the vertical line of the edge does not represent anything behind being recessed
    • The design is full open air with no recess of any kind
    • in technical terms the handrail is set back, not recessed as it does not have an over hang that is at least 18" above.
Do you have an interp from Cali that is explicit that it is required for a setback that is not recessed within a wall?
Click to expand...
This was done at The Getty Museum in marble (inset flush with the walls), expensive detail but it works
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top