Does ADA stifle free speech?

[mtlogcabin]

https://townhall.com/columnists/johnstossel/2017/09/27/disabled-by-government-n2386785

 

[mark handler]

Does ADA stifle free speech?
Maybe, but if it is not enforced, inaction will deny others of equal access.
Stanford needs stop having executive parties and first class travel and spend that money to "close caption" the tapes, then release them.

 

[conarb]

Does ADA stifle free speech?
Maybe, but if it is not enforced, inaction will deny others of equal access.
Stanford needs stop having executive parties and first class travel and spend that money to "close caption" the tapes, then release them.

Stanford is too busy building a new campus in Redwood City the size of the Palo Alto campus to house nothing but administration to expand their empire with more climate change grants, number one source of income is now grants, number two is alumni donations, tuition is now almost nonexistent as it is free to all but those with families making over $135,000 per year, admission is now based upon diversity and inclusion, brains are now out, smart kids are no-longer welcome, in fact they are told to "Check their white, male, cognitive privilege at the door" when entering a classroom.

When I was there in the early 50s there was one blind girl, I had a class with her, she had a braille machine that had a stand much like a court reporter, she typed class notes in braille. Handicapped students were liked and helped back in those days, not demanding and obnoxious like today.

 

[tmurray]

Why don't they give some students credit to closed caption them. These things are only as expensive as you make them.

 

[Yikes]

I've had multiple projects with limited budgets where in the name of equivalent facilitation, the ADA solution was not to add accessibility, but rather to remove the added convenience for everyone. 2 examples:
1. At a public university, we closed the non-compliant pathway/staircase that used to be a shortcut for 95% of the students from the sidewalk on the hill above. Now they all have to meander along the street until it curves back to meet the building entry. Actually, many of them still climb down the hill, causing erosion problems and it is also a fall hazard.

2. At an elementary school, inside one building we closed the restrooms that could not readily be made accessible. Now all student have to travel an extra 200' to another building next door which has accessible restrooms.

 

[mark handler]

I've had multiple projects with limited budgets where in the name of equivalent facilitation, the ADA solution was not to add accessibility, but rather to remove the added convenience for everyone. 2 examples:
1. At a public university, we closed the non-compliant pathway/staircase that used to be a shortcut for 95% of the students from the sidewalk on the hill above. Now they all have to meander along the street until it curves back to meet the building entry. Actually, many of them still climb down the hill, causing erosion problems and it is also a fall hazard.

2. At an elementary school, inside one building we closed the restrooms that could not readily be made accessible. Now all student have to travel an extra 200' to another building next door which has accessible restrooms.

Overreaction and misguided.
Not required and not the intent.

 

[conarb]

Overreaction and misguided.
Not required and not the intent.

Not true, it's a form of egalitarianism, as an example take college admissions, taking white Caucasians as the norm they give credits to Negroes, Latin, and American Indian applicants based upon lower average IQs, conversely they penalize some Asian groups for higher average IQs, the intent is to make everyone equal in an egalitarian society.

 

[tmurray]

Is posting videos of lectures a protected speech?

Also, the article claims that it is former president Barack Obama's regulators that are doing this. Are they not President Donald Trump's regulators now?

The article seems a little biased.

 

[mark handler]

Once again easy to blame the black guy, yes it was the Obamas Department of Justice (pdf link from the post: https://news.berkeley.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/2016-08...), which sent the letter to Berkley (stanford followed later) that two representatives from National Association of the Deaf brought a complaint: the videos did not have captions so they the complainants could not use them in their classes. The easist way to resolve the issue was to remove the videos. The harder path would be to close caption them or go to court.
Always blame the other guy. Or the black guy. Obama did not write the regulations. Once again the ADA and the revisions were all done during Republican administrations
Like most laws written by Congress there are flaws. Easy to blame the President for everything, even with a dysfunctional Congress.

 

[mtlogcabin]

The easist way to resolve the issue was to remove the videos

Yes that was the easiest and cheapest thing to do but it did not "resolve" of depriving the thousands of other students access to the lectures.
Maybe the answer should have been all future videos need to include closed caption.
If a building does not have a ramp for access do the owners remove the steps so nobody has access? This everybody or nobody philosophy under Accessibility issues will result in a big backlash against the gains accessibility has made in this country.

 

[fatboy]

Well said mt.....I was trying to think of how to articulate that thought, but you said exactly what I had on my mind.

 

[ADAguy]

Not on "our" forum ADA doesn't. Equal voice to all.

 

[mark handler]

Not on "our" forum ADA doesn't. Equal voice to all.

Not for the blind.....

 

[ADAguy]

? they have tools: Braille, canes, text to voice, voice to text, etc.

 

[conarb]

Yes that was the easiest and cheapest thing to do but it did not "resolve" of depriving the thousands of other students access to the lectures.
Maybe the answer should have been all future videos need to include closed caption.
If a building does not have a ramp for access do the owners remove the steps so nobody has access? This everybody or nobody philosophy under Accessibility issues will result in a big backlash against the gains accessibility has made in this country.

Mountain Man, this is the cultural Marxist method to make everyone equal, since IQ is ingrained ab birth you can't raise intelligence but you can fail to educate the smart so you tear the top down to make all equal, school test scores are out here in California, they are now given by computer that automatically adjust questions so the dumb can pass and in the process tear the smart down to make all equal.

Last spring was the third administration of the California Assessment of Student Performance and Progress, which includes Smarter Balanced and other exams known in this state and which replaced tests in the previous STAR system. The CAASPP It is a computer adaptive test — meaning as the test progresses, questions become harder or easier depending on the student’s answers.

But persistently low achievement rates of African-American, Latino, poor, English-learner and disabled students, who together make up a majority of the state’s public-school students, fuel criticism of the educational status quo.¹

Disabled students perform poorly because they include morons and imbeciles, we are becoming the Idiocracy portrayed in the book and movie.

And these results after the computers have "equalized" the test questions, so if we can tear down the top to make everyone equal you can certainly see how we can deny access to able bodied people to equalize the disabled.




¹ http://www.eastbaytimes.com/2017/09/27/california-school-test-scores-why-are-they-flatlining/

 

[ADAguy]

Doesn't bode well for the future, does it? A few more major environmental events and we will drain the coffers.
The times they are a changing, rapidly!

 

[tmurray]

Seems like the equivalent to picking up your toys and going home when told to share isn't it?

 

[mtlogcabin]

Seems like the equivalent to picking up your toys and going home when told to share isn't it?

Being told to share and bear 100% of the cost to comply is not the same as a "picking up your toys and going home attitude"



COST TO CREATE CLOSED CAPTIONS
What does it cost me to receive a Closed Caption file for my film?
We currently charge $5.50 per minute.
If you are a client of Distribber's the price is $5.50 per minute with or without a script/transscript, if you're not a client the price is $6.00 per minute with or without a script/transcript. The industry standard is between $7-$10 per minute with a transcript. The $5.50 price has no minimum requirements, if the film is 10 minutes then the total will be $55 to receive the Closed Caption file. There is a $150 sync charge if your film is delivered to any of our platforms.


https://www.distribber.com/closed-caption-services
Roughly $400.00 per 45 minute lecture including the sync charge

Or 8 MILLION dollars ($8,000,000.00) to do all 20,000 lectures that where available online for free

 

[tmurray]

Being told to share and bear 100% of the cost to comply is not the same as a "picking up your toys and going home attitude"



COST TO CREATE CLOSED CAPTIONS
What does it cost me to receive a Closed Caption file for my film?
We currently charge $5.50 per minute.
If you are a client of Distribber's the price is $5.50 per minute with or without a script/transscript, if you're not a client the price is $6.00 per minute with or without a script/transcript. The industry standard is between $7-$10 per minute with a transcript. The $5.50 price has no minimum requirements, if the film is 10 minutes then the total will be $55 to receive the Closed Caption file. There is a $150 sync charge if your film is delivered to any of our platforms.


https://www.distribber.com/closed-caption-services
Roughly $400.00 per 45 minute lecture including the sync charge

Or 8 MILLION dollars ($8,000,000.00) to do all 20,000 lectures that where available online for free

When you note a construction violation, how much does the municipality kick in?

 

[mtlogcabin]

Apples to oranges comparison. nobody is going to get hurt or die because a small percentage of students can't hear a video.

Maybe the university made a wise decision not to burden the taxpayer and chose not to raise tuition fees to cover the cost. There is a point where the cost out weighs the benefit for the select few. Unfortunately the majority of students are the ones who suffer the biggest loss.
This is just the beginning. Are ICC, IAPMO, APA, NFPA webinars and others closed caption? Any instructional video that is produced and available online through that organizations website are subject to the same ADA violation of failing to provide closed captioning.

Are you willing to pay more out of your personal pocket for dues and training over the internet?

 

[tmurray]

Sorry, but it was the law to provide equal access when they created the videos. A police officer doesn't rip up a speeding ticket when you tell them you speed there all the time.

I certainly have sympathy for existing buildings that are forced to make alterations, but this would be like constructing a brand new building not to ADA and then being upset when someone calls you out on it.

As I said earlier, get your students to closed caption it for college credit. The college made a decision that since they did not want to make the effort to serve some of their students, they will serve no one.

 

[fatboy]

The college made a decision that since they did not want to make the effort to serve some of their students, they will serve no one.

That just strikes me as........backwards.

If the hearing impaired were sitting in a lecture/class, there would no closed captioning........why is providing a video different?

 

[mtlogcabin]

http://www.adatitleiii.com/tag/closed-captioning/

The DOJ’s position in its findings letter to UC Berkeley — that a covered entity has a duty to ensure that content that it makes available to the public free of charge is accessible — certainly pushes the boundaries of the ADA and has not been tested in the courts. If covered entities must in fact ensure that all of the information that they put out for the world to use for free (no matter how remotely related to their central mission) or face lawsuits and DOJ investigations, there may well be a significant reduction in the amount of information provided on the web for public consumption.

A court may at some point rule on this precise question in the pending lawsuits brought by members of the NAD against Harvard University and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) in Massachusetts federal court. The plaintiffs there are members of the public who are asking the court to order the universities to provide captioning for tens of thousands of videos on their websites. As we reported, the court rebuffed the universities’ efforts to dismiss the case early and President Obama’s DOJ filed briefs supporting the NAD. As the case continues, the universities will likely focus their efforts on proving that providing captioning for tens of thousands of videos is an undue burden or would fundamentally alter the nature of the videos they are providing. We would not be surprised if these lawsuits result in these universities deciding to follow UC Berkeley’s lead and limit the amount of public access to their online videos.

http://news.berkeley.edu/2017/03/01/course-capture/

They have been close captioning since 2015. It is the 3 to 10 year old videos that will no longer be available

 

[ADAguy]

"Bummer" considering that Mass. was the first state to implement statewide access laws way back in 67'.
Unintended consequences, pre-PC days.