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Does new CA guardrail code have exception for *existing residential structures?

tbz said:
L4Gray,

Here is how I see it, the insurance carrier I believe you noted said it was not required, but would like it done, a wink and a nod to premium increases coming...

The AHJ is correct, the building was built to code based on the 1976 UBC, which was required when built. Changes to it would trigger the new product to be installed to todays code.

I am not sure why you would be required to change all the walkways, there is nothing wrong with them unless they won't hold the new guard loads with the changes when the only reason you are changing the "GUARDS" existing configuration is to reduce the opening size from 6 - half that. And you are not technically replacing the existing guards you are adding to the existing guards and you are doing less than 9% of work to the existing product in place.

Example: lets say 5ft section between posts so you have 10 openings of 5.375" between the 5/8" balusters set at 6" C/L, so 6 * 8.5% = 0.51 or the size of the 1/2" bar you are proposing to add, so you are doing less than that since posts will deduct even more space from the overall guard size.

If the "Guard" Company says in writing they can provide the 1/2" bar and install it to the existing frame work, and the guard will meet todays codes (including loads and current mounting) without having to be replaced, I would file for a appeal or allowed modification for safety reason, because lets say the small alteration cost $10 grand and they are pushing into a $200 grand direction, You should be able to file and go before some department, or town council some how some way and present what you want to do and the cost differences.

YEs it is Crazy, when you are trying to improve something and the blind mice remove all common sense from the equation. That is why I always follow don't touch it till all the ducks are in a row.

As to maintaining the property to safe levels, only a lawyer can provide you proper counsel as they have the LAW degrees and Licenses as to what fly's and what does not, no one here unless they are a practicing CA Lawyer is only speculating personal OP.

If the AHJ is saying you are fine by the LAW they enforce and the insurance company is saying you are fine by the LAW they see and the insurance carrier is still writing the policy and not refusing coverage, and your legal counsel says you are good. Then who here can say otherwise, as you have checked all the boxes for now and are working on a plan for future none required upgrades of things that the HOA would like to do.

I will end with again:
  • The local City - AHJ says you are good like is.
  • The Insurance Carrier says your good - But we would like you to look at these items for the future
  • I will add this here
    • An engineer's review says the existing guards still meet the code they were installed to and no repairs are needed at the time of the report.
      • Or repairs were needed, then done and engineer inspected and approved the "Repairs"
  • And your Legal Counsel says you are good
I am only guessing, but its not like you are neglecting the issue, you are doing something and "Bureaucrats" are inserting the process of slowing down a simple fix because of exerting overly restrictive requirements which now require getting funding, vs the quick simple fix.

Ladies and gentlemen of the Jury, we wanted to add the balusters to the spacing and had the funding in place, and the engineers said it would work, we had the contractor ready to go, BUT the AHJ said we can't do it, because the AHJ said closing down the opening size triggers complete complex upgrades which exceeds 20 times the original cost and now requires us to rip apart the complex and change the walkways and balcony structures to todays New Codes, and as thus we needed to regroup, bring in an architectural firm, get bids and see what funding we can secure, if any and well it all takes time, our first approach would have covered this, and by the way according to the City we don't need to close the spacing down, the insurance carrier said we are fine but suggest we look at it which we were in the process of doing.

What weren't we doing?

Yes the world is Crazy

My satire is a little old this morning....

Enjoy the day everyone.....
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tbz - That was all VERY helpful info. Thank you so much!!!
 
L4Gray said:
tbz - That was all VERY helpful info. Thank you so much!!!
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L4Gray,

The changes the AHJ is saying you might or most likely may need to do by adding the 1/4" baluster to the existing guard system is were I would start by interviewing 3 engineering firms / architectural engineering firms. Have them give you bids to do a study and see what work needs to be done with adding in the balusters and or if other changes are going to be required.

I would also check out if you can separate the common areas that visitors and owners have access to everyday from the private balconies for each of the 24 units.

IF you can, and one does not trigger and require all to be done, just upgrade the common areas under the HOA and require the individual owners of each unit to be on their own. I would offer the cost and option for their unit to be done, but leave it to them, but require it be done before a unit can be transferred or rented to a new occupant, or even make any owner who rents the unit out have to upgrade when the complex is being done on their own dime.

Obviously, it will cost less for each unit if all are done at one time, and who is responsible for a non-required upgrade is your best guess, I haven't a clue, stacked city living is not my cup of tea, I like watching the deer and the occasional bear wander by during the day, friendlier neighbors IMO.

But all my notes are just food on the wall for thought, an engineering / architectural firm is the only one that can get you a precise project scope and direction of improvement to obtain cost estimates. If you were on the east coast, I would toss you a few names, but I haven't a clue for the west coast.

Good luck
 
tbz said:
L4Gray,

The changes the AHJ is saying you might or most likely may need to do by adding the 1/4" baluster to the existing guard system is were I would start by interviewing 3 engineering firms / architectural engineering firms. Have them give you bids to do a study and see what work needs to be done with adding in the balusters and or if other changes are going to be required.

I would also check out if you can separate the common areas that visitors and owners have access to everyday from the private balconies for each of the 24 units.

IF you can, and one does not trigger and require all to be done, just upgrade the common areas under the HOA and require the individual owners of each unit to be on their own. I would offer the cost and option for their unit to be done, but leave it to them, but require it be done before a unit can be transferred or rented to a new occupant, or even make any owner who rents the unit out have to upgrade when the complex is being done on their own dime.

Obviously, it will cost less for each unit if all are done at one time, and who is responsible for a non-required upgrade is your best guess, I haven't a clue, stacked city living is not my cup of tea, I like watching the deer and the occasional bear wander by during the day, friendlier neighbors IMO.

But all my notes are just food on the wall for thought, an engineering / architectural firm is the only one that can get you a precise project scope and direction of improvement to obtain cost estimates. If you were on the east coast, I would toss you a few names, but I haven't a clue for the west coast.

Good luck
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Thank you once again!

I had a chance to speak to a different planner in building & safety and briefly describe the alterations we need to make for insurance compliance. All he’s asking from us is a site plan, photos and info from the contractor. i have no idea how to create a site plan. The planner sent a sample of someone else’s site plan for railings, but I definitely need help in creating one to submit to the planning dept. Can you or anyone else suggest where I might go for the creation of site plan??
 
A site plan is an overall general map layout of the building by floor level with the basics on it.

You might be able to get a copy of the original floor plans from the building department if they have simple access to them.

Then make copies of each level, highlight and label each section of railing on the map with a number and then take a photo of that guard (the railing) and put your notes on it what is going to be done.

From my perspective, the fabricator / railing company you are going to hire, I would contact them and see if they can prepare the whole thing for your submittal.
They want to be able to know where all the work is being done, what is being done, and then follow along and inspect the project and verify it was done correctly.

This is normally what the architectural firm or engineering firm does, but for simple projects like this, the railing contractor should be able to put it together for you unless it needs am Lic. Architects stamp.
 
tbz said:
A site plan is an overall general map layout of the building by floor level with the basics on it.

You might be able to get a copy of the original floor plans from the building department if they have simple access to them.

Then make copies of each level, highlight and label each section of railing on the map with a number and then take a photo of that guard (the railing) and put your notes on it what is going to be done.

From my perspective, the fabricator / railing company you are going to hire, I would contact them and see if they can prepare the whole thing for your submittal.
They want to be able to know where all the work is being done, what is being done, and then follow along and inspect the project and verify it was done correctly.

This is normally what the architectural firm or engineering firm does, but for simple projects like this, the railing contractor should be able to put it together for you unless it needs am Lic. Architects stamp.
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Once again, tbz, I thank you! That same planner in the building dept also sent what he called a “short list” of architectural firms who might do a site plan for us. There were 15 firms his short list, lol. Having no idea who to choose, I simply chose the only woman.. She just happened to be “very good” friends with that same city planner and said not to worry, she’ll help me through this process. She provided a link to the City to request all site plans for our bldg, told me it’ll probably take 10 days and to email her once the City responds. I am beyond grateful for everyone’s help in this regard! Remaining hopeful...
 
L4Gray said:
Thank you for your very informative response!
This 24-unit building has thousands of feet of iron railing, on all walkways, 60 ft long balconies. We’re trying to figure out the best approach to deal with this situation: address liability, cost and also the significant way in which alterations will change the look of the entire building. The HOA was notified by Farmers Insura
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L4Gray said:
Thank you for your very informative response!
This 24-unit building has thousands of feet of iron railing, on all walkways, 60 ft long balconies. We’re trying to figure out the best approach to deal with this situation: address liability, cost and also the significant way in which alterations will change the look of the entire building. The HOA was notified by Farmers Insurance:
Click to expand...

L4Gray said:
Thank you for your very informative response!
This 24-unit building has thousands of feet of iron railing, on all walkways, 60 ft long balconies. We’re trying to figure out the best approach to deal with this situation: address liability, cost and also the significant way in which alterations will change the look of the entire building. The HOA was notified by Farmers Insurance:
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Do you have an update on what you've decided to do? Do you have more details on what kind of rail covering the insurance company accepts?
 
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Jutka said:
Do you have an update on what you've decided to do? Do you have more details on what kind of rail covering the insurance company accepts?
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Yes, Jutka. Thank you for asking! Got so caught up with the process of accomplishing this feat, that I forgot all about those who helped me get started!! I used everyone’s input here and we got it done!!

Steel fabricating contractor chosen to do the work (and I) worked with the City on a constant basis, and I got someone at the City to help me out and expedite wherever possible. Finally got approved for permit at the end of August! ($470 for permit and fees.) Work completed near end of September and received final City signoff (delays on their end) mid October.

Everyone is thrilled, it looks beautiful, and now we’re all good with respect to our bldg’s insurance going forward!! I’m so very grateful for all your input!! Thank you!
 
Great to hear you got this done and it worked out for your building.

If you are able to post maybe some before and after pictures through a link to a share photo site I think it would help archive the post to show others in the future how it can be worked out and done.
 
L4Gray said:
I manage a 24-unit condo built to code in 1981. IRC 312.1.3 (a new code) states that pickets on guardrail system can’t be spaced as to allow a 4" object to pass through. Will this condo building now be required to comply with the NEW code requirement, or is there an exception for existing buildings which were built to code at that time? Their iron railing has 6” spacing between rails, and it would cost a fortune to now have to comply with the new code requirement.
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Hi L4Gray, I'm in a similar situation with a 35 unit condo built in the 80s and insured by Farmers as well. What did your HOA decide to do with the upgrades? We're being forced to remediate by the summer.
 
OK. Per
jmac562 said:
Being forced by Farmers Insurance provider.
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OK.
To clarify, post #52 says that if it was legal at time it was first permitted and installed, then it complies with the current applicable code, which is the California Existing Building code and CBC 102.6

So if Farmer's Insurance said "your guards must comply with the current applicable code", you are OK as-is.

If Farmer's Insurance said "your guards must comply with the current code as it applies to new buildings", then they are forcing you to do something beyond the applicable code minimum as a condition of entering into an insurance agreement with them. And of course it is entirely acceptable for them to ask it - - and ti is also entirely acceptable for you to tell them 'no', and shop around for another insurance provider that won't require this.

if you decide to upgrade your guardrails to satisfy Framer's see post #48.
 
jmac562 said:
Being forced by Farmers Insurance provider.
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Jmac562,

As noted by Yikes the process for L4gray started around post 48, I would suggest re-reading through the entire topic from post #1 through your first post.

The basic information is there, as to executing it, that will be on your HOA.

L4gray's project, by re-reading the posts looks to have added the 1/4" baluster between the pre-existing 5/8" balusters. You cannot assume this will work for your location without first doing all the leg work to see if the structure will allow for it, hence don't assume the additional weight being added will not cause other problems.

Your original guard system was designed, built and installed to meet a possible different standard and requirement, altering that guard system without oversight and approval from a licensed structural engineer with a set of plans could lead to a catastrophic result.

Normally the simplest way to get an ideal on the level and complexity of the cost is to call in a few miscellaneous metal fabricators that do metal railings and get some estimates and ideas on what and or how they would suggest the opening limitations be addressed and the be done.

IF any of them say a permit will not be required or no engineer will be needed, I suggest you listen and be nice, but move on to the next company, you will need a permit and an engineer, even if it is just the fabricator sub-contract engineer verifying what they plan to do will work.

This type of upgrade and alteration work seems simple, but until it is verified by an engineer that the work will comply and meet all new code requirements and not do harm, don't move forward, for adding physical weight mass and wind loads to an older structure requires verification the design will work before executing.
 
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