Door clearance at pocket door

[Yikes]

Please confirm that at a 36" sliding (pocket) door, the required 36" wide door clearance for a front approach can include the space between the door jambs.



The model code illustration in ADAS/11B-404.2.4.2(a) shows it to face of wall, but the table 11B-404.2.4.2 dimensions it to the stop and latch side with zero inches, and Fig. 11B-404.2.3(b) shows it as measured to inside face of jamb stop.

 

[arwat23]

I'd say it's measured to the face of the wall / frame. I don't think there's anything in text of the code that can back me up, but if the maneuvering clearance needs to be measured to the face of the wall / frame in most other situations, it would make sense to me that it would apply to all situations.

What about doorways without doors? Sure it's a different situation, but both are covered in this section of CBC/ADAS, so wouldn't the same rules apply to both situations? Where would you measure the maneuvering clearance from in that situation?

11B-404.2.3 is for clear opening width, not maneuvering clearances.

 

[Yikes]

Thanks for your feedback. But 11B-404.2.4 says “maneuvering clearances shall extend the full width of the doorway” [that’s inside faces of jamb, right?] “and the required latch side or hinge side clearance”, which is zero for a front approach.
So I think “full width of doorway” is measuring to inside faces of jamb, so I don’t see a reason why it can’t extend inward all the way to the face of the door.

 

[arwat23]

Thanks for your feedback. But 11B-404.2.4 says “maneuvering clearances shall extend the full width of the doorway” [that’s inside faces of jamb, right?] “and the required latch side or hinge side clearance”, which is zero for a front approach.
So I think “full width of doorway” is measuring to inside faces of jamb, so I don’t see a reason why it can’t extend inward all the way to the face of the door.

Yes, and yes. All good points that I don't think I don't think has a direct answer in code.

However, what about doorways without doors? Same section of code applies, so same rules for both. Where do you measure the clear space from in that situation? Do you extend it past the face of the wall and, if so, where do you stop?

Where would you measure the maneuvering clearance for on the push side of a hinged door without a closer? Same 0" parallel to doorway dimension.


I think this just comes down to interpretation. Personally, I think face of wall is the "correct" answer, or at least a consistence answer I can use in all situations. Can I back that up with anything concrete in code? Nope, not that I know of. The only reason I'm saying what I am is because I wouldn't know where to measure the maneuvering clearance for a doorway without a door if the "face of wall" wasn't consistent. That and some Access Board diagrams that may or may not be applicable to this situation but have nonetheless buried their way into my subconscious at this point.

But that's just me. I love consistency, so maybe I'm being a bit strict on this...

 

[Yikes]

Yes, and yes. All good points that I don't think I don't think has a direct answer in code.

However, what about doorways without doors? Same section of code applies, so same rules for both. Where do you measure the clear space from in that situation? Do you extend it past the face of the wall and, if so, where do you stop?

Where would you measure the maneuvering clearance for on the push side of a hinged door without a closer? Same 0" parallel to doorway dimension.
View attachment 14666 View attachment 14667

I think this just comes down to interpretation. Personally, I think face of wall is the "correct" answer, or at least a consistence answer I can use in all situations. Can I back that up with anything concrete in code? Nope, not that I know of. The only reason I'm saying what I am is because I wouldn't know where to measure the maneuvering clearance for a doorway without a door if the "face of wall" wasn't consistent. That and some Access Board diagrams that may or may not be applicable to this situation but have nonetheless buried their way into my subconscious at this point.

But that's just me. I love consistency, so maybe I'm being a bit strict on this...

Under my interpretation for push side clearance without a closer, I would measure to the door-way, i.e. the width of the door. The clear areas could go in as far as the outer edge of the stops, because they reduce the opening width to less than the door-way, as per the photo below:



As far as a doorway without a door (cased opening)? When doing a forward approach, it's really no different than a hallway or any other accessible route as per 403.5.1:


IMO, only when you turn (a "side approach") does table 404.2.4.2 help provide additional clarity.

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

A117.1-2009:

 

[steveray]

That was tripping me up..I knew something was measured from the face of door and it is the 8" recess....