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Doors required to be accessible, or not?

Discussion in 'Accessibility' started by ADAguy, Jul 3, 2019.

  1. ADAguy

    ADAguy Sawhorse

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    The "low hanging" fruit in Montana is not as attractive to the "suits" unless it is a large statewide chain or a government agency that a disabled person cannot access for services, or a courthouse. Maybe then it would rise to a level where DOJ might choose to focus resources on it.
     
  2. Rick18071

    Rick18071 Sawhorse

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    wel·fare
    /ˈwelˌfer/
    Learn to pronounce
    noun
    1. the health, happiness, and fortunes of a person or group.
      "they don't give a damn about the welfare of their families"
      synonyms: well-being, health, good health, happiness, comfort, security, safety, protection, prosperity, profit, good, success, fortune, good fortune, advantage, interest, prosperousness, successfulness
      "local authorities have a duty to promote the welfare of children"
      • statutory procedure or social effort designed to promote the basic physical and material well-being of people in need.
        "the protection of rights to education, housing, and welfare"
    It's seems to me that any of the things you say you could approve would affect the welfare of some people especially if they are handicapped.
     
  3. Yikes

    Yikes Gold Member

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    ADAguy, who are you addressing when you say "stop fighting it"? It is not within a local building official's jurisdiction to fight it, nor to comply with it.
    The system is working exactly as it is supposed to when "It is up to their designers to address code items that do not comply with minimum ADA Standards which may exceed A117.1 or ICC Ch 11."

    If the local code aligns with it, it is a convenience for the applicant, but not a necessity.
    I would also add that if you give the illusion that your local code complies 100% with ADA, or that you are plan-checking 100% for ADA, you may be doing a disservice to your customer by lulling them into a false sense of security.
    Better to give them the disclaimer as noted in other posts above.

    Now, what were we saying about doors? ;)
     
    #43 Yikes, Jul 10, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2019
  4. ADAguy

    ADAguy Sawhorse

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    That door hardware (for T-II & T-III, ) should be accessible, as in "no knobs, operable without special knowledge or effort" is that too difficult to do/understand?
     
  5. mtlogcabin

    mtlogcabin Sawhorse

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    Really, do you honestly think 1/2 inch will make a difference if a WC or tub can be used or not? Or that it will hinder the enjoyment of health and the common blessings of life; prosperity; happiness; applied to persons.
    I have no trouble explaining my decisions that do not line up exactly with the code requirements. However those same decisions when accused of violating an individuals civil rights will probably never stand up and that is the main reason I am a strong believer in it is not my responsibility or am I authorization under federal law to enforce ADA, FHA or OSHA regulations. Am I responsible to inform owners contractors and designers of the other rules and regulations that may effect their project.
    Absolutely,
    http://www.montanafairhousing.org/newsletters_press/2003/nov03.pdf

    Webster 1824 dictioanary
    Welfare

    WELFARE, noun [well and fare, a good faring; G.]

    1. Exemption from misfortune, sickness, calamity or evil; the enjoyment of health and the common blessings of life; prosperity; happiness; applied to persons.

    2. Exemption from any unusual evil or calamity; the enjoyment of peace and prosperity, or the ordinary blessings of society and civil government; applied to states.
     
  6. e hilton

    e hilton Bronze Member

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    I work for a large organization. We are going through all the facilities with a 93 page ada checklist, looking for any and everything. Several facilities have the wc 18-1/2" off the side wall. We are adding a layer of 5/8 gwb and reinstalling the grabbars to bring them into compliance.
     
  7. mtlogcabin

    mtlogcabin Sawhorse

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    It is odd you mention you work for a large corporation using an ADA checklist.
    We had an hotel that was built a few years ago and corporate sent their own people out and had to redo I think it was 6 ADA rooms because of a 59.5 inch clear opening for the tubs. I am sure they found a couple of other items also.
    The tubs where located between a 2 hour shaft and the 1-hour partition wall. I do not remember the details of the fix but it was a nightmare to meet the ADA minimum requirement and maintain the fire ratings all because of a 2010 consent decree with the DOJ
     
  8. Yikes

    Yikes Gold Member

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    Your question of feasibility and comprehension appears to be a different than your original post, where the original question was:
    • "Name any and all doors covered by ADA, CBC 11b or ICC 11 that are not required to be accessible other than those with exceptions"
    And the response and examples in posts #2,6,9,11,18 was basically: There are many doors that area allowed in CBC/IBC that are not covered by ADA, CBC 11b or ICC 11, and those doors don't need to be accessible.
    Listing all the types and conditions of doors not covered by ADA, CBC 11b or ICC 11 would be an endless task, because the list includes any door on a route that is not required to be accessible by ADA, CBC 11b or ICC 11.

    As to your second question: I don't think a requirement for "operable without special knowledge or effort" exists in ADA T-II or T-III, CBC 11b or ICC 11.
     
  9. ADAguy

    ADAguy Sawhorse

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    1010.1.9 Door Operation ... without special knowledge or effort
    1010.1.9.5 Unlatching. one operation ( to release latch/lock)
    1010.1.9.1 Hardware. without tight grasping, tight pinching, or twisting the wrist
     
  10. Ty J.

    Ty J. Sawhorse

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    I think this is where you are confusing folks ADAguy.

    Your question relates to accessibility, but again you are referring to Ch. 10 requirement. Ch. 10 is solely means of egress and does not address accessible use.

    Set a fire alarm off, add some smoke, and people are not much smarter than cattle in a stampede; hence how people get trampled. The requirements of Ch. 10 are actually more stringent than the accessibility requirements of Ch. 11.
     
    Yikes likes this.
  11. mtlogcabin

    mtlogcabin Sawhorse

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    Similar language and intent as Chapter 10
    ANSI
    404.2.6 Door Hardware.
    Handles, pulls, latches, locks, and other operable parts on accessible doors shall have a shape that is easy to grasp with one hand and does not require tight grasping, pinching, or twisting of the wrist to operate. Operable parts of such hardware shall be 34 inches (865 mm) minimum and 48 inches (1220 mm) maximum above the floor. Where sliding doors are in the fully open position, operating hardware shall be exposed and usable from both sides.

    ADA
    404.2.7 Door and Gate Hardware.
    Handles, pulls, latches, locks, and other operable parts on doors and gates shall comply with 309.4. Operable parts of such hardware shall be 34 inches (865 mm) minimum and 48 inches (1220 mm) maximum above the finish floor or ground. Where sliding doors are in the fully open position, operating hardware shall be exposed and usable from both sides.
     
  12. Yikes

    Yikes Gold Member

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    ADA, if your original post is about Chapter 11 and ADA, please don't bring chapter 10 into the conversation.
    Why? Because Ch. 10 concerns Means of Egress (getting out of the building), but Ch. 11 /ADA is about Access.

    To put it another way, if the phrase "without special knowledge or effort" was really about getting into a building, then no door could ever have an entry lock, because entry locks require special knowledge ("which key am I supposed to use?") and effort (the extra operations to pull out the key and unlock).

    If I'm wrong please let me know, and I can look forward to the day when the nearby bank decides to remove its entry door and vault door locks in the name of ADA accessibility.
     
    #52 Yikes, Jul 10, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2019
  13. Paul Sweet

    Paul Sweet Sawhorse

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    I'm puzzled about these constant arguments about ADA vs. IBC. The IBC incorporates all the ADA and Fair Housing Act construction requirements, and actually exceeds them in a few cases. IBC includes churches and private clubs which are exempt from ADA because of the way the 1964 Civil Rights Act was written. ANSI A117.1 requires vertical grab bars at toilets and now requires larger toilet stalls. The only ADA requirements that aren't covered by IBC are operational issues which a building code can't address.

    It might be prudent to say you are only reviewing or inspecting to IBC, but in reality you're also reviewing or inspecting to ADA unless you allow exceptions to ANSI A117.1 requirements or other provisions in the IBC that are covered by ADA.
     
  14. conarb

    conarb Sawhorse

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    Paul:

    I'm also puzzled as to how ANSI is even relevant, as I understand it ANSI writes it's standards that are either incorporated within codes or not, if they are incorporated their wording stands, if they are not they are completely irrelevant. Remember how Uncle Bob used to yell: "We have a stand-alone code?" So what if ANSI requires larger toilet stalls?
     
  15. Rick18071

    Rick18071 Sawhorse

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    I am required to enforce the icodes by the state not ADA. If the state made us enforce the ADA we would be checking all the existing buildings even when no construction is being done. I am not sure if the ADA makes a distinction between new construction and existing buildings. And I don't think the IEBC incorporates all the ADA or Fair Housing Act.
     
  16. ADAguy

    ADAguy Sawhorse

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    Yes Rick, ADA does address both new and existing and unlike the "code", requires retroactive barrier removal.
    The disconnect is that the Feds require compliance but did not follow through on the connection between ADAAG/ADASAD and the code, given that the code is accepted or amended by each state separately. That and making those with disabilities the policing arm and not building departments.
     
  17. Ty J.

    Ty J. Sawhorse

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    The IBC provides the scoping of when and how to apply the A117.1 standard.

    BTW, ICC A117.1-2009 is not an ANSI Standard anymore. ICC owns it outright
     
  18. conarb

    conarb Sawhorse

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    Thanks for that Ty, I need to think about it, as corrupt as the ICC is my initial reaction is that they shouldn't be allowed to buy the standards.
     
  19. Paul Sweet

    Paul Sweet Sawhorse

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    I should have been clearer. I was referring to 2010 ADA Standards for Accessible Design (ADASAD), which is a small part of the overall ADA. The U.S. Access Board worked closely with ANSI to develop these standards, which is why they are almost identical.

    As Ty said, IBC 1102.1 requires buildings and facilities to be designed and constructed to be accessible in accordance with this code and ICC A117.1. IBC chapter 11 tells what has to be accessible, and A117.1 tells how to make it accessible.

    California and some other states modify this to refer to their own access code, which is probably still based on ADASAD and A117.1.

    The IBC incorporates many other many NFPA, ANSI, and other standards. Chapter 16 references ASCE 7 for almost all structural design issues.
     
  20. ADAguy

    ADAguy Sawhorse

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    CBC uses the numbering system of ADASAD (with additions) but not ANSI until it meets or exceeds ADASAD, which it doesn't in certain areas.
     

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