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Doug Fir Lumber

Nope. The frustration is because I ask a question and get attacked. I never said I was going to violate the building code. In fact, my first question was ABOUT the building code. I never stated I wasn't going to get a permit. Amazing how many people don't read, don't think, and just start banging on the keyboard.
 
jim618326 said:
Thanks but I will not use kiln dried wood on my garage unless it is the last thing left on earth. The stuff splits on the ends every time you nail it. ............
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Thank you for coming here to post and I am sorry your did not hear what you wanted to. We appreciate your perspective. Personally I have framed with a lot of doug-fir but mostly for floor framing due to the longer span lengths you get. It is a heavier lumber due to its density. Feel free to buy green but don't bother cutting and nailing until it dries so keep it in storage. Again, if you want to comply with the codes and pass permit required inspections, have a sit down conversation with your local building official. <19% WME is the way to go.
 
You might want to look through this too:

Use of ungraded rough sawn lumber

I am curious and trying to get a consensus from other code officials about the use of rough sawn, ungraded lumber from local sawmills for structural projects such as timber frame. I know the code restricts it's use to non structural applications such as paneling and siding but what if it is...
www.thebuildingcodeforum.com
 
Justifying ungraded lumber for structural purposes has nothing to do with engineering and is probably closer to the practice of magic.

A major part of the problem is that without a validated methodology and training individuals tend to make judgements based on criteria that has not been shown to be valid or they ignoring characteristics that should be avoided. Look up the Dunning Kruger Effect. The fact that somebody is extremely confident should be a warning.

In todays legal and code environment anybody who attempts to grade lumber without being trained regarding the grading rules is acting negligently. There is a difference between having the legal authority and being competent.

There may be very limited situations where one could justify the use of ungraded lumber but in such situations the builder should adopt compensating strategies and would accept that there was a lot of uncertainty. The reality is that in the continental united states there is no reason why structural lumber cannot be graded.
 
So just a question

These builders that cut down trees and build log cabins with the wood?

To include dimensional lumber.

Outside the code books??
 
If you are operating in an area where there are codes and they are being enforced there are provisions in the code for log structures.

If there are no codes or there is no enforcement and you decide to ignore the code and build a log cabin this is a special case where you should recognize that there is a lot of uncertainty. But since there is no code enforcement why would the building department be concerned. In such a situation the builder would want to keep things simple, be working with somebody who has done it before, and ideally had an engineer involved.

If there are codes and if they are being enforced then maybe these builders that cut down trees to build a log cabin need to understand that the rules have changed and they need to get in line.
 
Clarification? We used green Doug-Fir #2 grade, (painted red ends) that was stamped by an approved agency in the homes we built and it was mainly floor joist. On occasion we would get D-fir wall studs #2&btr, slight pinkish contrast.

You guys appear to be talking green as if it's being cut in the field and being used without being stamped. If I missing something here I apologize for my ramblings'.
 
My question would be why is douglas fir needed in the first place? As others have mentioned, it is usually desirable for the added structural strength, which comes at a cost of more money. I think most people are just struggling with why you are willing to spend more money without getting anything in return.

Anything that is not at the required moisture level cannot be graded. The codes require graded lumber to be used, or the involvement of an engineer. So, if you want to use green lumber, you would need an engineer involved on your project.

The issues with green lumber is that as the water evaporates, the lumber shrinks. It can also become dimensionally unstable, which causes the member to warp or twist. The reason most contractors and tradespeople want dry lumber is because they know that the lumber will not typically twist if it has not already done so. More importantly, the shrinkage in the lumber can cause structural issues. Some are as minor as cracks appearing in sheetrock and doors and windows not opening and closing properly, but it could even cause structural failures.
 
jim618326 said:
Thanks but I will not use kiln dried wood on my garage unless it is the last thing left on earth. The stuff splits on the ends every time you nail it. When building walls on a house, the ends of 2x4s get nailed in all kinds of directions. End nailing occurs everywhere. Green lumber also holds nails better. The moisture puts just enough surface rust on the nail and then the woods shrinks around the surface rusted nail and holds like you wouldn't get in kiln dried lumber.
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I have never heard this about rust on the nails. Can you point to the paper where this has been tested? I'm surprised there would be enough oxygen for the oxidation process to occur causing rust in this environment.
 
cda said:
So there is

Graded green Douglas fir?
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May not be as many as there was in the 70's and 80's but this was on the web.

SOCOMI - South Coast Lumber Company & affiliates, Oregon
Green Doug Fir Dimension

2" x 4"#2 & BetterGRN8' to 20'
2" x 6"#2 & BetterGRN8' to 20'
2" x 8"#2 & BetterGRN8' to 20'
2" x 10"#2 & BetterGRN8' to 20'
2" x 12"#2 & BetterGRN8' to 20'
 
Green lumber can be graded.

The IBC does not allow the use of non-graded lumber if an engineer is involved.

The problem with green lumber include shrinkage and related problems, lesser structural strength in some situations, and the moisture that creates concerns regarding mold.

The use of Douglas Fir and green lumber are two separate issues. If you use different species of wood span tables may differ and the connection capacities may in some situations be different but the issues related to green lumber are the same.
 
cull
the word that is used to ALSO define all of the crooked kiln dried lumber.
yes green wood does warp
fact is lots of modern framed houses get rain soaked during construction.
fact lots of the framing lumber gets rained on in the lumber yards

cut a window and door openings into a log cabin built by my Grandfather and about ruined a chain saw because he had driven so many spikes through the logs. Drive a spike into a green log and let it squirt. Drive a spike into a kiln dried structural wood and I will watch you go get the impact drill or nail gun. I built a lot of things with green lumber. Remember the old wet saw dust curling up along your hand saw? The smell and the feel while you were working with it. And the feel of the died out rough grained edges years later.

To the original poster, Jim - sorry you were attacked. Obviously you are a "builder of old", that has keen observations about wood. One day when I lived in Connecticut over a weekend I helped build a deck with a friend of mine and his old Uncle (I think he was in his 80's). That old uncle could drive nails with his little hammer while my weak Engineering office muscles could not drive the nails with my long unused framing hammer - and I missed the head a lot too!

Quite a few places up here you can easily get green wood - think I will build something with it when I retire.
 
So, as you can see, there are more than two sides to a story, his and code being 2. Based on choice you take your chances and the results.
 
In the 90's I saw a double sided stucco wall opened up that was only 5 years old. Plywood was rotted, mold everywhere. I'm not forensic but we deduced the lumber used was wet and had no way of drying out. In older times, structures breathed and consequently were healthier, and thus wet lumber could be used without much consequence. Today's structures are very different....geez, we have to install whole house ventilation because they are constructed so tight (air and vapor barriers, blower door tests, gasketed light fixtures and outlets, etc). That said, as an architect, the last thing I want is someone rattling my cage 10 years later saying they are having allergies based on what they think is a mold problem. Most of the mold claims never materialize, but the cost of defending oneself makes it a no-brainer for me to spec dry lumber.
 
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