Drainage pipe material

[Mac Moonfire]

Hi,
Why are ABS pipes not allowed as drains for a foundation? anyone knows why?
From NBC:
9.14.3.1. Material Standards
1) Drain tile and drain pipe for foundation drainage shall conform to
a) ASTM C 4, “Clay Drain Tile and Perforated Clay Drain Tile,”
b) ASTM C 412M, “Concrete Drain Tile (Metric),”
c) ASTM C 444M, “Perforated Concrete Pipe (Metric),”
d) ASTM C 700, “Vitrified Clay Pipe, Extra Strength, Standard Strength, and Perforated,”
e) BNQ 3624-115, “Polyethylene (PE) Pipe and Fittings for Soil and Foundation Drainage,”
f) CAN/CSA-B182.1, “Plastic Drain and Sewer Pipe and Pipe Fittings,” or
g) CSA G401, “Corrugated Steel Pipe Products.”
Cheers

 

[ICE]

f) CAN/CSA-B182.1, “Plastic Drain and Sewer Pipe and Pipe Fittings

Is that ABS and also PVC?

 

[Mac Moonfire]

f) CAN/CSA-B182.1, “Plastic Drain and Sewer Pipe and Pipe Fittings

Is that ABS and also PVC?

very good question, never read the standards. The standards seems to apply to both PVC and ABS. look here
My fellow building officials and local contractors say PVC only, but... is it really? and why?

 

[Inspector Gadget]

The referenced standard appears to refer to both ABS and PVC, so both are allowed:

Publish date: 1992-03-31
Supersedes: CAN/CSA-B182.1-87
Superseded by: B182.1-96
Keywords: ACRYLONITRILE BUTADIENE STYRENE, DRAINAGE, DRAINPIPES, PIPE FITTINGS, PIPES,POLYPROPYLENE, POLYVINYL CHLORIDE, PLASTICS, SEWERS, SOLVENTS, THERMOPLASTICPOLYMERS, WASTE DISPOSAL (BUILDINGS), WATER SUPPLY AND WASTE SYSTEMS(BUILDINGS)
ICS Codes: 23.040.20; 23.040.45;
Standard Number: CAN/CSA-B182.1-M92

CAN/CSA-B182.1-M92

www.scc.ca

 

[Inspector Gadget]

very good question, never read the standards. The standards seems to apply to both PVC and ABS. look here
My fellow building officials and local contractors say PVC only, but... is it really? and why?

Your fellow building officials ought to get into the habit of verifying their statements against Code and Standard, before incorrectly stating things as fact.

<rant>
One of the things that drives me bonkers are inspectors who tell people "because I say so." Nobody alive knows the Code. I have to administrate NBC 2015, NECB 2011, CSA B365, CSA Z240.10.1, CSA A440.4, NFPA 10, NFPA 20, NFPA 80, NFPA 96, and a crapton of other. I don't "know" all of that.

That said, if I tell a contractor that something is wrong, and needs to be fixed, I will give a reference. Yesterday, I found that someone had spliced jack studs under a lintel. I knew it was wrong, but I went back to the van, looked up the reference, and wrote the report with the reference. That gives the contractor some degree of comfort that I may have actually read stuff before telling them "you can't do that."

Nothing tarnishes our profession more than inspectors who require things that aren't required (or don't require things that are required). We have books, we are supposed to be able to read them and give correct answers. Your peers should have immediately done what ICE did, and think of the standard. I didn't have to pay a dime to find out the standard applied to both ABS and PVC, it was in the scope.
</rant>

On a related note, start collecting standards... it will save your butt.

 

[Pcinspector1]

I pick "f", ABS and PVC are both allowed.

 

[Pcinspector1]

We see a little SDR used here for foundation drainage, some of the older houses in town used clay tile pipe.

 

[Mac Moonfire]

I feel terrible I've thrown my friends under the bus. sorry for making you rant. I don't think it ever came up or denied simply because ABS is 4x the price of PVC. it makes sense PVC has always been preferred.
thanks for your help folks

 

[e hilton]

I read an article that said one of the problems with abs is that it is frequently made with recycled material. Not only is that a spec violation, but it tends to degrade sooner.

(C) ABS pipe that does not meet ASTM requirements might, within a period of a decade or less, crack and leak wastewater and sewage, resulting in structural damage, vermin infestation, and severe health hazards for residents or occupants of buildings in which defectively manufactured ABS pipe has failed.  One apparent cause of these mechanical failures of ABS pipe has been the use of nonvirgin, reprocessed plastic resin for the manufacture of ABS pipe.
(D) The continued use of this nonvirgin, reprocessed plastic resin by some ABS pipe manufacturers violates the requirements of the UPC and is also in violation of the building standards established in accordance with the California Building Standards Law.  The problem of the property damage inflicted on the public continues to worsen.
(E) Thousands of California residents either already have, or eventually will, experience serious damage to their homes, apartments, and condominiums, as well as threats to their health and safety, because of the substandard ABS pipe that has been installed, in violation of building standards, in structures throughout the state.

 

[Rick18071]

On a related note, start collecting standards... it will save your butt.

Worked for 4 different inspection companies, None of them would buy the standers except for NFPA 13.

 

[ICE]

I feel terrible I've thrown my friends under the bus. sorry for making you rant.

Not long into my career I came to the realization that we're going to need a bigger bus.

 

[Inspector Gadget]

I feel terrible I've thrown my friends under the bus. sorry for making you rant. I don't think it ever came up or denied simply because ABS is 4x the price of PVC. it makes sense PVC has always been preferred.
thanks for your help folks

It's just one of my triggers. I come from a different background - sports officiating - where we had to know the rules, by heart, and were drilled on those before we were let out into the wilds.
When we, as inspectors, have the luxury of being able to read a code book before making a determination, there's no reason to get things wrong. Period.

 

[Inspector Gadget]

Worked for 4 different inspection companies, None of them would buy the standers except for NFPA 13.

I guess I have the luxury of being in a quasi-governmental organization.... The boss told me outright to make a concerted effort to gather what we need.

Right now, we have
NFPA 10
NFPA 13
NFPA 14 (older version)
NFPA 20
NFPA 30
NFPA 80

CSA A440.4 (window installation)
CSA B365 (wood stove installation)
CSA B44 (elevators)
CSA B651 (Barrier free)

ASHRAE 62.1

Of the above, we've used CSA A440.4 a lot (we live in a moist area that requires sloped sill pans, for example), and surprisingly, ASHRAE 62.1 a whole ton. (We have the 2019 version, and we've been able to guide ventilation installers to the right flows for veterinary clinics - of which we've had one new and one reno in the last year.... )

 

[Pcinspector1]

Sports officiating rules book, is less than 1-inch thick when I coached baskeball, last time I looked the 11 code books I try to enforce were 9-1/2-inches thick not counting some of standards that are referenced.

You'll need NFPA 13, 72 and 70
GA-600 is very usefull
WFCM and NDS should be added as well

 

[Inspector Gadget]

GA-600 is very usefull
WFCM and NDS should be added as well

Not familiar with any of these three. Elaborate?

FYI: I should note anyone can access NFPA standards through online flipbooks, free.

 

[Pcinspector1]

NFPA 13 Intallation of sprinkler systems
NFPA 72 Fire Alarms
NFPA 70 National Electrical Code
GA600 Fire resistant design manual
WFCM Wood frame construction manual (AWC)
NDS National design apecifications (AWC)

 

[Inspector Gadget]

Ah... Yeah, I have a bunch of fire-rated assembly manuals on hand (GP, Certainteed, etc), and go online for ULC assemblies as well. Canadian Code also allows us to attribute a resistance rating to certain simple assemblies.

I have NFPA 13, Canada has its own electrical code.

Other two are 'murican by the looks of it. Canadian Wood Council has a span table book that is the shiznit.

 

[tmurray]

Fire alarm install is CAN/ULC-S524 in Canada.

I've been involved in the construction of over 600 homes at this point. Have never even had someone ask to use ABS.

 

[ICE]

I've been involved in the construction of over 600 homes at this point. Have never even had someone ask to use ABS.

Please tell us what material is used?

 

[Inspector Gadget]

Please tell us what material is used?

Usually one of two things: purpose-designed, pre-perforated white PVC (sewer-grade) pipe; or the corrugated heavy-duty black material.

I can only remember one infraction on all the backfills I'd done - someone had decided they didn't need holes in their PVC pipe, and surrounded a house with solid pipe, if you can believe it.