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Drinking Fountain Protruding Object

R

rosegamble

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Jul 9, 2021
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South Carolina
Hello,

I have a very large square-sized retail space. I need to add a drinking fountain. There is no alcove as-is.

If I put the drinking fountain on one of the long walls around this square-shaped space, would you consider this no-compliant with the protruding object rule? It's not technically in a "circulation path" with the 4" protrusion limit. But what really is a circulation path? I get that a drinking fountain cannot protrude into a hallway, but this is just one big large open room.

Thanks!
Rachel
 
You're probably OK if the bottom of the drinking fountain is exactly 27" above the floor. The problem comes when you have a high/low fountain. If the high fountain is between the low and the wall the low one will act as the cane detection barrier.
 
That's what I was thinking. However, my A117.1 commentary says otherwise. See attached and below:

"All portions of the projection, not just the lowest
part, are subject to these provisions. For example, a
bowl-type drinking fountain may be mounted on an
arm or pedestal at the 27-inch (685 mm) height, but
because the bowl above it sticks out farther and is at
a higher level, that part of the projection must also be
considered. Therefore, both the height and the overall
projection of all elements that protrude into the circulation
path must be checked."
 
Paul Sweet said:
You're probably OK if the bottom of the drinking fountain is exactly 27" above the floor. The problem comes when you have a high/low fountain. If the high fountain is between the low and the wall the low one will act as the cane detection barrier.
Click to expand...
Sorry, forgot to "reply" to you. See above!
 
rosegamble said:
Are wing walls not considered "protruding objects"? Never considered that before, ha!
Click to expand...
No
They extend to the ground negating the definition (Not "...more than 27”...")
ADASAD 307. A. Objects with leading edges more than 27” and less than 80” above the finish floor or ground cannot protrude more than 4”
 
mark handler said:
No
They extend to the ground negating the definition (Not "...more than 27”...")
ADASAD 307. A. Objects with leading edges more than 27” and less than 80” above the finish floor or ground cannot protrude more than 4”
Click to expand...
Interesting. Is leading edge defined anywhere?

For example, I am liking the idea of the low drinking fountain being the barrier for the high fountain. But that means the bottom of the low drinking fountain must be at 27" min./max. for toe and knee clearance. This means the other portions of the low drinking fountain (bowl) would be over 27", thus going into the protruding object range of 27"-80". I see lots of info online about using the low drinking fountain in this way but am having trouble tying it back to the code...

Unless "leading object" means something else...
 
rosegamble said:
Interesting. Is leading edge defined anywhere?

For example, I am liking the idea of the low drinking fountain being the barrier for the high fountain. But that means the bottom of the low drinking fountain must be at 27" min./max. for toe and knee clearance. This means the other portions of the low drinking fountain (bowl) would be over 27", thus going into the protruding object range of 27"-80". I see lots of info online about using the low drinking fountain in this way but am having trouble tying it back to the code...

Unless "leading object" means something else...
Click to expand...

201.4 Terms Not Defined​

Where terms are not defined through the methods authorized by this section, such terms shall have ordinarily accepted meanings such as the context implies.

"...the forward part of something..." Merriam-Webster.com Dictionary
 
Thank
mark handler said:

201.4 Terms Not Defined​

Where terms are not defined through the methods authorized by this section, such terms shall have ordinarily accepted meanings such as the context implies.

"...the forward part of something..." Merriam-Webster.com Dictionary
Click to expand...
Thank you. What do you all think - if there was a 24"x24" cube projecting 10" from the wall for the sake of simplicity, and placed with the bottom of the cube 26" from the floor, would this count as a protuding object? Os does the fact that the bottom of the cube ("leading edge") is under 27" make it NOT a protuding object?
 
rosegamble said:
Thank you. What do you all think - if there was a 24"x24" cube projecting 10" from the wall for the sake of simplicity, and placed with the bottom of the cube 26" from the floor, would this count as a protuding object? Os does the fact that the bottom of the cube ("leading edge") is under 27" make it NOT a protuding object?
Click to expand...
It's still protruding but it would comply to be in a circulation path.
 
California Building Code 11B-602.9 says
"All drinking fountains
shall either be located completely within alcoves, positioned completely between wing walls, or otherwise positioned so as
not to encroach into pedestrian ways."

So if no alcove we always use wing guards.
 
The thing that' been alluded to in earlier posts:
In a big, open room, what constitutes a "circulation path" or "pedestrian way"?
a) Is it merely the 44" or so allotted to the means of ingress/egress?
b) Or is it anywhere that a pedestrian may have the opportunity to circulate that is accessible?

I think the answer is closer to (b) for purposes of cane detection.

There do appear to be some underlying concepts regarding assumed direction of circulation. However, people who use canes for detection of objects often travel adjacent to walls for guidance. Here's how the Fair Housing Act explains it (see below). Note that it is not assumed that a person will be traveling perpendicular to the main wall, directly toward the drinking fountain.


1679706000598.png
 
Yikes said:
1. Technically you could argue that the sheet metal sides form wing walls around the drinking fountain that is above it.
2. Obviously, the fountain itself is not accessible.
Click to expand...
Of course you're correct.

What about outdoor drinking fountains? Wing walls or bollards or on to just install them to the side of a walk?
 
steveray said:
It's accessible for standing persons....Don't discriminate.... ;)
Click to expand...
I hate top be that "well, actually..." guy, but unfortunately ADAS 602.2 requires knee and toe space at all designated accessible fountains, including the "standing persons" drinking fountain in 602.7. The only exception in 602.2 is for children's drinking fountains.

Of course ADAS 211.3 says that once you exceed the minimum number of required accessible fountains, you only need 50% of the excess accessible (say that 10x as fast as you can!).
 
1Roger said:
California Building Code 11B-602.9 says
"All drinking fountains
shall either be located completely within alcoves, positioned completely between wing walls, or otherwise positioned so as
not to encroach into pedestrian ways."

So if no alcove we always use wing guards.
Click to expand...

bill1952 said:
Of course you're correct.

What about outdoor drinking fountains? Wing walls or bollards or on to just install them to the side of a walk?
Click to expand...

Here in California, this phrase in our code comes into play: "or otherwise positioned so at not to encroach into pedestrian ways".

In parks, we install them to the side of walks, in their own concrete pad that's 30" wide. The adjacent groundcover/planting functions like an alcove, providing cane detection for the visually impaired pedestrian.


1679945135172.png
 
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