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Drinking Fountain protruding?

darcar said:
This coming from the guy acussing ME of bullying?!? Now you suggest I should MAKE them reconfigure the doors because they don't meet your standard of design eh?...I'll make sure I call the Chef and let him know the meal tastes like dog food...
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Knowing where this was going to wind up [since the CO was being held hostage] I hoped that just maybe your bullying could at least achieve something productive.
 
yikes,

Your roomie should have asked if she had any TP (toilet paper), that would be an acceptable request!

Better than that "Did you see that game last night, man Brady sure can chuck it!"

or your tables ready!

Wave Hello?

pc1
 
they are still at the rough in stage...

give opinions after you have more facts JA !!!

got off subject but I guess it just shows that code is not strictly black and white...

Its nice to be able to hide behind your keyboard and fabricate acusations isnt it?...
 
darcar said:
they are still at the rough in stage...give opinions after you have more facts JA !!!

got off subject but I guess it just shows that code is not strictly black and white...

Its nice to be able to hide behind your keyboard and fabricate acusations isnt it?...
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Experienced contractors have seen kiss the ring before...what do you think the odds are that they would have agreed to do it after the CO was issued?

Here's an experiment to see the effect of holding the permit hostage, walk around your jurisdiction and ask occupied businesses to erect screens around their drinking fountains where similar conditions occur.
 
we're not in the business of enforcing issues on businesses where work is not being performed... unless you give me the adress to your place of work ;)
 
darcar said:
we're not in the business of enforcing issues on businesses where work is not being performed... unless you give me the adress to your place of work ;)
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Kissing of the ring is always a case of "enforcing issues" rather than codes.
 
Yes sir, you are exactly right... what was I thinking?...
 
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As per the IBC 2009, 1003.3.3: protrusions of greater than 4" above ANY WALKING SURFACE, between 27" to 80" AFF are not permitted

As per ANSI A117.1-2003; 602.2 and 306 there is a required a front approach with knee and toe clearance to a water foutain.

The knee clearance for an accessible water foutain shall be 27" AFF or greater

A prtoutsion hazrad is greater than or equal to 27" AFF

If the water foutain was less than 27" (26.99999999999"), it would not comply for a front approach

If the water foutain was greater than 27" (27.0000000001"), it would be a protrusion hazard

There is no margin of error. Water foutains need wing walls or need to be recessed into an alcove
 
Jim B said:
There is no margin of error. Water foutains need wing walls or need to be recessed into an alcove
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No so. Construction tolerances are accepted in both the ADA and the A117.1. According to the explanatory text for the new standards:

Dimensions. Section 104.1 of the 2010 Standards notes that dimensions not stated as a "maximum" or "minimum" are absolute. Section 104.1.1 of the 2010 Standards provides that all dimensions are subject to conventional industry tolerances except where the requirement is stated as a range with specific minimum and maximum end points.



The absolute dimensions are only applicable when there are two numbers in a range. Where the term "maximum" or "minimum" is used alone, there are construction tolerances allowed. What becomes reasonable is subjective. There have been papers written by some of the people on the Access Board relative to their opinion on what is reasonable and it depends on what's being measured. A maximum 1/2 inch vertical rise on a threshold could be a 1/16 higher and be within construction tolerances. That would be acceptable. a larger tolerance is acceptable when measuring the width of a parking space or access aisle. It is often seen that one parking space may be a bit smaller than the magic number but the next one is larger. That's construction tolerance. This isn't my opinion. I've spoken with a number of folks at the Access Board as well and its fully supported.

Therefore, setting the bottom at 27 inches and having it be within construction tolerances is acceptable and supported by the federal commentary text noted above.
 
Here in PA, the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania Department of Labor and Industry feels that construction tolerance is not defined in ANSI A117.1-2003 or in the IBC 2009. Without definition there is no allowance according to PA L&I

Also, construction tolerance is for installation, not design. The design is absolute, and with absolute, water fountains are a protrusion hazard.

The enforcement in PA is to these standards and not the American with Disabilities Act. The feeling is also that commentary is not code.

Also, in unofficial interpretation from the ICC, water fountains should be can propose a protrusion hazard without barriers.

This is not to say, on my part, that common sense should apply, BUT PA L&I is ultimately my boss.
 
I retraced a portion of my previous post:

Design IS absolute, so 27” in design to the bottom apron of the fountain would NOT require barriers
 
What if they had the same configuration without the doors? Would that change anyones take on this?
 
Would not matter to me if the doors were not there or not, still a protrusion and still needs to be in an alcove. Easy fix, had this done several times last year after plan review.
 
So, in the photo posted here, what are the dimensions required to keep this drinking fountain from being a protruding object? The code says a minimum of 27 inches for knee clearance. So if the bottom of the leading edge is greater than 27 inches, now is the fountain a protruding object?

View attachment 477

View attachment 477

/monthly_2011_09/dimensions.jpg.0f8ec74d67b4359c2bec6cf472490e8f.jpg
 
People who are blind or who have low vision can be seriously injured when they are unable to detect an object in their path by using the sweep of their cane.

podrink.gif
 
mark handler said:
People who are blind or who have low vision can be seriously injured when they are unable to detect an object in their path by using the sweep of their cane.
podrink.gif
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Mark, that's my concern. I'm beginning to understand now why some statewide codes require drinking fountains to be in alcoves. We're having a discussion internally with some seeing the drinking fountain itself as a protruding object regardless of the height with others seeing that it is not if the leading edge is at the 27 inch height.

Your thoughts?
 
Codegeek said:
Mark, that's my concern. I'm beginning to understand now why some statewide codes require drinking fountains to be in alcoves. We're having a discussion internally with some seeing the drinking fountain itself as a protruding object regardless of the height with others seeing that it is not if the leading edge is at the 27 inch height. Your thoughts?
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It is a protruding object per ADA, ANSI-117, the Fair housing design manual,, and many state codes
 
Mark....I have been wrestling with cantilevered countertops recently......any input? Same requirements? Hate to be the only one looking at and enforcing this stuff....
 
Great illustrations! These are handy...Mark!

Thanks again
 
If you put the drinking fountains in an alcove or provide a wing wall, would the skirt still be required for the "hi" unit? I'm inclined to say no as the fountain is no longer a protruding object with the wing wall protection, but I'm curious as to what others think.
 
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