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Egress through intervening spaces
- Thread starter TJacobs
- Start date
Re: Egress through intervening spaces
Brudgers wrote:
Now, you are making the case that because they are not expressly prohibited anywhere, then it is okay to put them everywhere. Do you really want to go that direction? With your line of logic, then if I have my one required exit, I can put an exit sign over the broom closet, the boss's office, the overhead dock door 3' above grade, the pet door, and the ladies room... Seriously brudgers?
Brudgers wrote:
Indeed. They are required over exits. Real exits.
Now, you are making the case that because they are not expressly prohibited anywhere, then it is okay to put them everywhere. Do you really want to go that direction? With your line of logic, then if I have my one required exit, I can put an exit sign over the broom closet, the boss's office, the overhead dock door 3' above grade, the pet door, and the ladies room... Seriously brudgers?
Re: Egress through intervening spaces
This is what I was hoping for actually, because it allows me to see where others are getting their logic.
The kettle corn is popping in the microwave... :lol:
Just hijacked it to high holy hell, didn't we? Sorry TJ. At least it's civil and on-topic.texasbo said:TJacobs said:Boy, this is fun...
This is what I was hoping for actually, because it allows me to see where others are getting their logic.
The kettle corn is popping in the microwave... :lol:
Re: Egress through intervening spaces
The kettle corn is popping in the microwave... :lol:
Yes, but it would be nice to get other's opinions too.
This is what I was hoping for actually, because it allows me to see where others are getting their logic.TJacobs said:Just hijacked it to high holy hell, didn't we? Sorry TJ. At least it's civil and on-topic.texasbo said:TJacobs said:Boy, this is fun...
The kettle corn is popping in the microwave... :lol:
Yes, but it would be nice to get other's opinions too.
Re: Egress through intervening spaces
Now, you are making the case that because they are not expressly prohibited anywhere, then it is okay to put them everywhere. Do you really want to go that direction? With your line of logic, then if I have my one required exit, I can put an exit sign over the broom closet, the boss's office, the overhead dock door 3' above grade, the pet door, and the ladies room... Seriously brudgers?
OK, so even though: 1. the code is a minimum, 2. and the code does not prohibit the exit sign, 3. and during a fire it might be a really good idea to leave the office area through the warehouse rather than the front door...
...your emminently logical interpretation is that despite the benefit to life safety, they need to tear it down.
Here's your sign:
TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN:
WE KNOW YOU'RE IN A PANIC, BUT
THIS IS NOT AN OFFICIAL EXIT.
THOUGH PROCEEDING THROUGH THIS DOOR
MAY HAVE BENEFICIAL VALUE FOR LIFE SAFETY
PURPOSES IN THE EVENT OF A FIRE,
YOU SHOULD TURN AROUND AND USE THE OTHER
DOOR EVEN IF DOING SO CAUSES DELAY AND AN
INCREASE TO YOUR RISK OF BODILY INJURY OR
EVEN DEATH.
BY PROCEEDING THROUGH THIS DOOR IN THE
EVENT OF A FIRE, EARTHQUAKE, TORNADO, WAR
OR OTHER NATURAL DISASTER OR MANMADE
ACT, YOU HEREBY AGREE TO HOLD HARMLESS
THE BUILDING OFFICIAL, HIS HEIRS, SUCCESSORS,
AND CHATTELS FROM EVENTS ARISING FROM
SUCH PASSAGE, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED
TO BLOODY NOSES FROM RUNNING INTO BOXES,
BROKEN BONES RESULTING FROM COLLISIONS
WITH FORK LIFTS, AND BURNING TO DEATH
WHILE READING THIS SUBSTITUTE FOR A
SIMPLE EXIT SIGN.
WE APOLOGIZE TO YOU AND/OR YOUR NEXT OF
KIN AS APPLICABLE, BUT OUR HANDS ARE
TIED BY THE BUILDING CODE...AND YOURS,
WELL DON'T LOOK NOW BUT THEY'RE
BURING OFF.
Indeed. They are required over exits. Real exits.texasbo said:
Now, you are making the case that because they are not expressly prohibited anywhere, then it is okay to put them everywhere. Do you really want to go that direction? With your line of logic, then if I have my one required exit, I can put an exit sign over the broom closet, the boss's office, the overhead dock door 3' above grade, the pet door, and the ladies room... Seriously brudgers?
OK, so even though: 1. the code is a minimum, 2. and the code does not prohibit the exit sign, 3. and during a fire it might be a really good idea to leave the office area through the warehouse rather than the front door...
...your emminently logical interpretation is that despite the benefit to life safety, they need to tear it down.
Here's your sign:
TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN:
WE KNOW YOU'RE IN A PANIC, BUT
THIS IS NOT AN OFFICIAL EXIT.
THOUGH PROCEEDING THROUGH THIS DOOR
MAY HAVE BENEFICIAL VALUE FOR LIFE SAFETY
PURPOSES IN THE EVENT OF A FIRE,
YOU SHOULD TURN AROUND AND USE THE OTHER
DOOR EVEN IF DOING SO CAUSES DELAY AND AN
INCREASE TO YOUR RISK OF BODILY INJURY OR
EVEN DEATH.
BY PROCEEDING THROUGH THIS DOOR IN THE
EVENT OF A FIRE, EARTHQUAKE, TORNADO, WAR
OR OTHER NATURAL DISASTER OR MANMADE
ACT, YOU HEREBY AGREE TO HOLD HARMLESS
THE BUILDING OFFICIAL, HIS HEIRS, SUCCESSORS,
AND CHATTELS FROM EVENTS ARISING FROM
SUCH PASSAGE, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED
TO BLOODY NOSES FROM RUNNING INTO BOXES,
BROKEN BONES RESULTING FROM COLLISIONS
WITH FORK LIFTS, AND BURNING TO DEATH
WHILE READING THIS SUBSTITUTE FOR A
SIMPLE EXIT SIGN.
WE APOLOGIZE TO YOU AND/OR YOUR NEXT OF
KIN AS APPLICABLE, BUT OUR HANDS ARE
TIED BY THE BUILDING CODE...AND YOURS,
WELL DON'T LOOK NOW BUT THEY'RE
BURING OFF.
Re: Egress through intervening spaces
Nah... my sign, in this case, is a nice blank wall above the door leading into the warehouse. Or maybe a mural of the MGM Grand painted above it.
What's your feeling about fake fire extiguishers? I mean, you've got the required amount. The extras don't have to actually work do they?
Nah... my sign, in this case, is a nice blank wall above the door leading into the warehouse. Or maybe a mural of the MGM Grand painted above it.
What's your feeling about fake fire extiguishers? I mean, you've got the required amount. The extras don't have to actually work do they?
Re: Egress through intervening spaces
Semioticly, I don't know which of your ideas is more interesting.
The ontological - the absence of a sign is a sign.
Or the metaphysical - an exit sign can be indexly false even though it points to the exit to which it purports to point.
Of course fake fire extinguishers are not analogous. The exit sign is real. The analogous case would be prohibiting working fire extinguishers from locations that do not require them.texasbo said:
Semioticly, I don't know which of your ideas is more interesting.
The ontological - the absence of a sign is a sign.
Or the metaphysical - an exit sign can be indexly false even though it points to the exit to which it purports to point.
Re: Egress through intervening spaces
OK so here's the thought experiment.
Since the occupancies are not required to be separated, then the door is not required.
So take it out and just provide a cased opening.
Paint lines on either side of a path connecting the cased opening to rear door of the warehouse.
On the plan, designate the continuous and uninterupted path from the front door, through the opening, to the rear door as "Exit access 1."
Now, can you put an exit sign over both sides of the cased opening?
OK so here's the thought experiment.
Since the occupancies are not required to be separated, then the door is not required.
So take it out and just provide a cased opening.
Paint lines on either side of a path connecting the cased opening to rear door of the warehouse.
On the plan, designate the continuous and uninterupted path from the front door, through the opening, to the rear door as "Exit access 1."
Now, can you put an exit sign over both sides of the cased opening?
Plans Approver
Silver Member
Re: Egress through intervening spaces
Just got back from an all day seminar on wall bracing. It will take some time to catch up, but ...
ps: for those sitting on the goal posts:
1008.1.2 Door swing. Egress doors shall be side-hinged swinging.
Exceptions:
1. Private garages, office areas, factory and storage areas with an occupant load of 10 or less.
Just got back from an all day seminar on wall bracing. It will take some time to catch up, but ...
Spaces w/ 1 exit need to be evaluated for both OL and CPofT per 1015.1 or as directed to 1015.1 by 1019.2 No.3. What am I missing?TJacobs said:
ps: for those sitting on the goal posts:
1008.1.2 Door swing. Egress doors shall be side-hinged swinging.
Exceptions:
1. Private garages, office areas, factory and storage areas with an occupant load of 10 or less.
Re: Egress through intervening spaces
Now, if you can rationalize to yourself, the code professional, the attorney and/or the judge that a warehouse is not similar to a storage room, then you're golden.
Like I said earlier, this may be common in other parts of the country, and if you're comfortable with that, then great.
Look at 1014.2, Item 2: "Egress shall not pass...through storage rooms...or spaces used for similar purposes.". There's an exception for M occupancies, if certain criteria is met.brudgers said:
Now, if you can rationalize to yourself, the code professional, the attorney and/or the judge that a warehouse is not similar to a storage room, then you're golden.
Like I said earlier, this may be common in other parts of the country, and if you're comfortable with that, then great.
Re: Egress through intervening spaces
ps: for those sitting on the goal posts:
1008.1.2 Door swing. Egress doors shall be side-hinged swinging.
Exceptions:
1. Private garages, office areas, factory and storage areas with an occupant load of 10 or less.
*I made a mistake and I have also corrected the previous post...sorry
Spaces w/ 1 exit need to be evaluated for both OL and CPofT per 1015.1 or as directed to 1015.1 by 1019.2 No.3. What am I missing?Plans Approver said:
ps: for those sitting on the goal posts:
1008.1.2 Door swing. Egress doors shall be side-hinged swinging.
Exceptions:
1. Private garages, office areas, factory and storage areas with an occupant load of 10 or less.
*I made a mistake and I have also corrected the previous post...sorry
Re: Egress through intervening spaces
So thinking a different way maybe,
If you put an exit sign over the door leading to the warehouse, either by requireing it or saying nothing and let it be installed.
Than something does happen and said person says well it was marked as an exit so I went that way.
and attorney asked you on the stand why did you require/ allow the exit sign when in this big fat expensive book put together by people with more brains than you say it is not ane exit and should not be marked????
and the live at five cameras have your face all over the news trying to explain well if you put a sign there it is not really and exit , but it is an exit, no wait let me think about that...............
just my two minutes
So thinking a different way maybe,
If you put an exit sign over the door leading to the warehouse, either by requireing it or saying nothing and let it be installed.
Than something does happen and said person says well it was marked as an exit so I went that way.
and attorney asked you on the stand why did you require/ allow the exit sign when in this big fat expensive book put together by people with more brains than you say it is not ane exit and should not be marked????
and the live at five cameras have your face all over the news trying to explain well if you put a sign there it is not really and exit , but it is an exit, no wait let me think about that...............
just my two minutes
TimNY
REGISTERED
Re: Egress through intervening spaces
If you're not going to classify the warehouse as a storage or "similar area", then I think it would be classified as a separate tenant area.
It appears (maybe can be confirmed) that the owner leases the office to some tenants, and may lease the warehouse to another tenant. OP says "multi-tenant" building. One is not accessory to the other.
I couldn't find this in the 2003 code, but 2006 has it. Makes sense to me.
1014.2.1 Multiple tenants.
Where more than one tenant occupies any one floor of a building or structure, each tenant space, dwelling unit and sleeping unit shall be provided with access to the required exits without passing through adjacent tenant spaces, dwelling units and sleeping units.
Edit: Link to citation
If you're not going to classify the warehouse as a storage or "similar area", then I think it would be classified as a separate tenant area.
It appears (maybe can be confirmed) that the owner leases the office to some tenants, and may lease the warehouse to another tenant. OP says "multi-tenant" building. One is not accessory to the other.
I couldn't find this in the 2003 code, but 2006 has it. Makes sense to me.
1014.2.1 Multiple tenants.
Where more than one tenant occupies any one floor of a building or structure, each tenant space, dwelling unit and sleeping unit shall be provided with access to the required exits without passing through adjacent tenant spaces, dwelling units and sleeping units.
Edit: Link to citation
Re: Egress through intervening spaces
Now, if you can rationalize to yourself, the code professional, the attorney and/or the judge that a warehouse is not similar to a storage room, then you're golden.
Like I said earlier, this may be common in other parts of the country, and if you're comfortable with that, then great.
There is only one space which is continuous between the front and rear doors.
It is designated as "Exit Access 1."
This single space abuts S1 and B occupancies at various points.
And of course a warehouse is a warehouse, not a storage room.
Look at 1014.2, Item 2: "Egress shall not pass...through storage rooms...or spaces used for similar purposes.". There's an exception for M occupancies, if certain criteria is met.texasbo said:
Now, if you can rationalize to yourself, the code professional, the attorney and/or the judge that a warehouse is not similar to a storage room, then you're golden.
Like I said earlier, this may be common in other parts of the country, and if you're comfortable with that, then great.
There is only one space which is continuous between the front and rear doors.
It is designated as "Exit Access 1."
This single space abuts S1 and B occupancies at various points.
And of course a warehouse is a warehouse, not a storage room.
Plans Approver
Silver Member
Re: Egress through intervening spaces
Condition 2 exists in 1015.1 to limit the travel distance within a space with one exit.
I must be dense or I'm kicking the crap out of a dead horse. I don't understand how you can not take into account the common path of travel. Common path of travel is not exclusive to buildings with 2 or more exits. In the case you presented, the termination of the common path of travel is the exit discharge for each space. At that point, they out of the building and should more than 2 directions of travel if it is the public way.TJacobs said:
Condition 2 exists in 1015.1 to limit the travel distance within a space with one exit.
Two Exits required.
Mixed occupancy S and B, unseparated.
Limit for a single exit in B occupancy is 49.
Limit for a single exit in S occupancy is 29.
Total occupant load is 37 per the OP and exceeds most restrictive requirement.
Two means of egress are required.
Mixed occupancy S and B, unseparated.
Limit for a single exit in B occupancy is 49.
Limit for a single exit in S occupancy is 29.
Total occupant load is 37 per the OP and exceeds most restrictive requirement.
Two means of egress are required.
JBI
REGISTERED
Re: Egress through intervening spaces
1008.1 Doors.
Means of egress doors shall meet the requirements of this section. Doors serving a means of egress system shall meet the requirements of this section and Section 1018.2. Doors provided for egress purposes in numbers greater than required by this code shall meet the requirements of this section.
1014.2 Egress through intervening spaces.
Egress through intervening spaces shall comply with this section.
1. Egress from a room or space shall not pass through adjoining or intervening rooms or areas, except where such adjoining rooms or areas are accessory to the area served, are not a high-hazard occupancy and provide a discernible path of egress travel to an exit.
Exception: Means of egress are not prohibited through adjoining or intervening rooms or spaces in a Group H, S or F occupancy when the adjoining or intervening rooms or spaces are the same or a lesser hazard occupancy group.
2. Egress shall not pass through kitchens, storage rooms, closets or spaces used for similar purposes.
Exceptions:
1. Means of egress are not prohibited through a kitchen area serving adjoining rooms constituting part of the same dwelling unit or sleeping unit.
2. Means of egress are not prohibited through stockrooms in Group M occupancies when all of the following are met:
2.1. The stock is of the same hazard classification as that found in the main retail area;
2.2. Not more than 50 percent of the exit access is through the stockroom;
2.3. The stockroom is not subject to locking from the egress side; and
2.4. There is a demarcated, minimum 44-inch-wide (1118 mm) aisle defined by full or partial height fixed walls or similar construction that will maintain the required width and lead directly from the retail area to the exit without obstructions.
3. An exit access shall not pass through a room that can be locked to prevent egress.
4. Means of egress from dwelling units or sleeping areas shall not lead through other sleeping areas, toilet rooms or bathrooms.
Always nice to include some code in the responses...
Just so we are all clear here, the OP indicates that the 'warehouse occupancy' is part of the 'business occupancy', so any talk of seperate tenancies is out the window. This is a single tenant space in a multi-tenant building (strip mall?).
The 'warehouse' protion is where the business keeps its' stuff, and is therefore 'accessory' to it (the best test of accessory is 'If the business closed, would the warehouse remain open?, the obvious answer in this case is 'no', therefore it is accessory).
Where a door is labeled as an exit it shall meet the requirements for an exit regardless of the number provided, and IMO this door does.
An S-1 and a B are the same 'hazard level', so egress from one to the next is not an issue. I would not consider the S-1 portion a 'storage room' as suggested, as 'storage room is lumped in with 'closet' implying, to me anyway, that it regulates smaller spaces unlikely to have a door to the exterior (many occupancies have 'kitchens' or 'kitchenettes' with no direct egress to the exterior).
Of course, there is always Section 1022...
1022.1 Horizontal exits.
Horizontal exits serving as an exit in a means of egress system shall comply with the requirements of this section. A horizontal exit shall not serve as the only exit from a portion of a building, and where two or more exits are required, not more than one-half of the total number of exits or total exit width shall be horizontal exits.
Exceptions:
1. Horizontal exits are permitted to comprise two-thirds of the required exits from any building or floor area for occupancies in Group I-2.
2. Horizontal exits are permitted to comprise 100 percent of the exits required for occupancies in Group I-3. At least 6 square feet (0.6 m2) of accessible space per occupant shall be provided on each side of the horizontal exit for the total number of people in adjoining compartments.
Every fire compartment for which credit is allowed in connection with a horizontal exit shall not be required to have a stairway or door leading directly outside, provided the adjoining fire compartments have stairways or doors leading directly outside and are so arranged that egress shall not require the occupants to return through the compartment from which egress originates.
The area into which a horizontal exit leads shall be provided with exits adequate to meet the occupant requirements of this chapter, but not including the added occupant capacity imposed by persons entering it through horizontal exits from another area. At least one of its exits shall lead directly to the exterior or to an exit enclosure.
Reading brudgers and t-bo's banter is fun, but you guys would save a lot of time if you just use the code.
1008.1 Doors.
Means of egress doors shall meet the requirements of this section. Doors serving a means of egress system shall meet the requirements of this section and Section 1018.2. Doors provided for egress purposes in numbers greater than required by this code shall meet the requirements of this section.
1014.2 Egress through intervening spaces.
Egress through intervening spaces shall comply with this section.
1. Egress from a room or space shall not pass through adjoining or intervening rooms or areas, except where such adjoining rooms or areas are accessory to the area served, are not a high-hazard occupancy and provide a discernible path of egress travel to an exit.
Exception: Means of egress are not prohibited through adjoining or intervening rooms or spaces in a Group H, S or F occupancy when the adjoining or intervening rooms or spaces are the same or a lesser hazard occupancy group.
2. Egress shall not pass through kitchens, storage rooms, closets or spaces used for similar purposes.
Exceptions:
1. Means of egress are not prohibited through a kitchen area serving adjoining rooms constituting part of the same dwelling unit or sleeping unit.
2. Means of egress are not prohibited through stockrooms in Group M occupancies when all of the following are met:
2.1. The stock is of the same hazard classification as that found in the main retail area;
2.2. Not more than 50 percent of the exit access is through the stockroom;
2.3. The stockroom is not subject to locking from the egress side; and
2.4. There is a demarcated, minimum 44-inch-wide (1118 mm) aisle defined by full or partial height fixed walls or similar construction that will maintain the required width and lead directly from the retail area to the exit without obstructions.
3. An exit access shall not pass through a room that can be locked to prevent egress.
4. Means of egress from dwelling units or sleeping areas shall not lead through other sleeping areas, toilet rooms or bathrooms.
Always nice to include some code in the responses...
Just so we are all clear here, the OP indicates that the 'warehouse occupancy' is part of the 'business occupancy', so any talk of seperate tenancies is out the window. This is a single tenant space in a multi-tenant building (strip mall?).
The 'warehouse' protion is where the business keeps its' stuff, and is therefore 'accessory' to it (the best test of accessory is 'If the business closed, would the warehouse remain open?, the obvious answer in this case is 'no', therefore it is accessory).
Where a door is labeled as an exit it shall meet the requirements for an exit regardless of the number provided, and IMO this door does.
An S-1 and a B are the same 'hazard level', so egress from one to the next is not an issue. I would not consider the S-1 portion a 'storage room' as suggested, as 'storage room is lumped in with 'closet' implying, to me anyway, that it regulates smaller spaces unlikely to have a door to the exterior (many occupancies have 'kitchens' or 'kitchenettes' with no direct egress to the exterior).
Of course, there is always Section 1022...
1022.1 Horizontal exits.
Horizontal exits serving as an exit in a means of egress system shall comply with the requirements of this section. A horizontal exit shall not serve as the only exit from a portion of a building, and where two or more exits are required, not more than one-half of the total number of exits or total exit width shall be horizontal exits.
Exceptions:
1. Horizontal exits are permitted to comprise two-thirds of the required exits from any building or floor area for occupancies in Group I-2.
2. Horizontal exits are permitted to comprise 100 percent of the exits required for occupancies in Group I-3. At least 6 square feet (0.6 m2) of accessible space per occupant shall be provided on each side of the horizontal exit for the total number of people in adjoining compartments.
Every fire compartment for which credit is allowed in connection with a horizontal exit shall not be required to have a stairway or door leading directly outside, provided the adjoining fire compartments have stairways or doors leading directly outside and are so arranged that egress shall not require the occupants to return through the compartment from which egress originates.
The area into which a horizontal exit leads shall be provided with exits adequate to meet the occupant requirements of this chapter, but not including the added occupant capacity imposed by persons entering it through horizontal exits from another area. At least one of its exits shall lead directly to the exterior or to an exit enclosure.
Reading brudgers and t-bo's banter is fun, but you guys would save a lot of time if you just use the code.
Re: Egress through intervening spaces
We now have 2 that say a warehouse is not a similar use to a storage room, would provide a discernible path of egress, and would allow a B to exit through it. Like I said, no problem if the B.O., in this case JD, interprets it that way.
We now have 2 that say a warehouse is not a similar use to a storage room, would provide a discernible path of egress, and would allow a B to exit through it. Like I said, no problem if the B.O., in this case JD, interprets it that way.
TimNY
REGISTERED
Re: Egress through intervening spaces
Good post.
The section, "Exception: Means of egress are not prohibited through adjoining or intervening rooms or spaces in a Group H, S or F occupancy when the adjoining or intervening rooms or spaces are the same or a lesser hazard occupancy group" does make my head spin a bit.
If we had never had this discussion and I was reviewing the business occupancy, I would have read "spaces in a Group H, S or F occupancy" and disregarded as not applicable since I am reviewing a B. I do see that the sentence states the intervening space is "in a Group S", and I definitely see where you are coming from, but I wonder as to the intent. Allow warehouse workers to exit through an office, absolutely. The other way around, is that what this section intended?
Is it me, or does this exception also remove the "accessory to the area served" requirement?
Good post.
The section, "Exception: Means of egress are not prohibited through adjoining or intervening rooms or spaces in a Group H, S or F occupancy when the adjoining or intervening rooms or spaces are the same or a lesser hazard occupancy group" does make my head spin a bit.
If we had never had this discussion and I was reviewing the business occupancy, I would have read "spaces in a Group H, S or F occupancy" and disregarded as not applicable since I am reviewing a B. I do see that the sentence states the intervening space is "in a Group S", and I definitely see where you are coming from, but I wonder as to the intent. Allow warehouse workers to exit through an office, absolutely. The other way around, is that what this section intended?
Is it me, or does this exception also remove the "accessory to the area served" requirement?