Electrical code on electric in basement

[socaldano]

I just had a house inspected. The house was built in 1953. It has large cement basement.
In St Loius County Missouri many of the cities have laws called "occupancy inspection" and "occupancy permit" where every time an adult resident is added (new family, new individual, get married, adult child moving home), you are supposed to move everyone out, get an occupancy inspection and an occupancy permit.
Some are interior and exterior inspections, some are int and ext only for rentals, some are exterior only for homeowners.

This house last passed inspection in 1988 when the last owner moved in. The inspector says "unless there is a floor in the basement all basement circuits must be GFCI protected". But this electrical was done in the 1950s, and he says this is a new city requirement.

Is that a NEC requirement? What is the "safety" issue with electrical in dry basements not being GFCI?
Wouldn't the City need to use the Existing building code for "occupancy inspections" where there is mostly cleanup and minor repairs rather than the building code?

 

[e hilton]

Inspection 101 … ask for a code section number, or reference to a local ordinance.

 

[TheCommish]

Ask for the law or regulations that require the inspection in the first place, there is nothing I can think of for an existing home without modification that would require a permit, that triggers a new occupancy permit for a owner occupied home.

 

[ICE]

every time an adult resident is added (new family, new individual, get married, adult child moving home), you are supposed to move everyone out, get an occupancy inspection and an occupancy permit.

Oh come on! That's ridiculous. How would that be enforced?

 

[Joe.B]

 

[e hilton]

I don't know if its like this everywhere. But here I only do that when they are demanding I do an expensive repair that is outlandish.

I would think adding a concrete floor to the basement is expensive, and unwarranted.

 

[steveray]

It is a newer NEC requirement that everything in the basement gets GFCI....

 

[e hilton]

Since you wrote about it in detail i have to ask … are you black?

 

[BN4537]

To the original question. Basement GFCI came into the 2020 NEC. Not supposed to apply to existing construction, new construction only.

Hazard is that a concrete floor is a grounded surface that can potentially conduct at least a small amount of electricity, especially in a basement where various levels of dampness could occur, so you could get shocked through your hand and out your feet, which could potentially cross through your heart and kill you. If you are standing on a framed wood floor, that hazard does not exist. Not required for slab-on-grade homes, even though the hazard there is arguably similar.

The amount of current required to kill you is measured in milliamps, so it does not take much conductivity to create a potentially lethal circuit.

 

[BN4537]

Since you wrote about it in detail i have to ask … are you black?

As a white man, I first hand witnessed blatant institutional racism in St John.

 

[steveray]

Not required for slab-on-grade homes, even though the hazard there is arguably similar.

And that is why the NEC is dumb.....

 

[BN4537]

And that is why the NEC is dumb.....

My guess is that "Big GFCI" knew they couldn't push it that far that fast, lol.

 

[e hilton]

Missed that. Sure seems like he is getting grilled by the city.

 

[socaldano]

Since you wrote about it in detail i have to ask … are you black?

Nope, middle age white guy.. First they went after the black men, then they came after me.
Most contractors and owner just lay low and hope not to get City attention.
I come from somewhere else and cry "foul" and the fur flies

strangely, south of a street called Olive, the inspections are a joke, some cities don't even have the laws.
But north and east of their, the more black the neighborhood the stupider the enforcement gets.
At least six (6) cities, in that north of Olive have agreed to refund all traffic citations, and pay reparations to almost everyone arrested for a municipal violation because everyone (US JUSTICE, primarily republican state legislature, Missouri AG, Missouri Supreme Court) identified that these cities of st loius county are out of control. The Missouri supreme court now (after Ferguson) requires judges in STL County to go to judge college every year to stop the violations of peoples rights. Remember, the MSC ordered 900,000 FTAs to be overturned as their blue ribbon panel could not find a single one that the court record met the legal standard for FTA, they discovered the judges were issuing FTA's like candy to raise funds for each of the city's they serve. Remember, the muni judges are usually under the tiny city's police departments payroll.

 

[socaldano]

Missed that. Sure seems like he is getting grilled by the city.

So now you are getting to the meat and potatoes on how I ended up here. We have a north county wide problem with inspectors

actually, when I moved here, on the house I was moving into. I had to fight with the city for three months to move into my own home. A home that the P.E. doing the purchase inspection said some minor repairs, lots of cleaning and a coat of paint and its ready to move in... a great deal.

The contractors insisted on leaving stupid things undone. Give the inspector a half dozen things 15 minute things to complain about. So he won't complain about the HVAC, the water heater or some other expensive thing.

In the case where a P.E. said there was almost nothing wrong. Three months of trying to get a permit to move into my own house. I learned I was wrong when I thought "I was going to show the contractors how to pass an inspection", the inspector made me replace a water heater $1500 by a master plumber (my guys could do at the time for $400 to code) , was going to make me replace the HVAC ($8,000 at the time) and required a $500 full engineering report, he was going to make me get a 2010 electrical, gas and plumbing certification on a 1954 house, a house the "existing building code" said did not have to be updated

...all because we did not leave some switch covers/outlet covers off, an outlet miswired, smoke detector non functional... you know, give him a bunch of stuff to complain about.
My P.E. engineer was the home inspector I used before buying it. He called his first inspection a $200 "walk and talk" same as the other two except he does not do a report. So I write down everything and he does not have to do a report. A report for the lender was $300 and a full legal report was $500. His first words for the city required full inspection was "what did I miss". When I showed him. He declared bullshit. He also said the water heater had at least 5 good years in it. And I showed him the inspectors report and this P.E. called each item on the list nonsense. Missouri grants the P.E. godlike powers on "health and safety of the building or structure". Then the inspectors boss still was not going to let me in, because he doesn't understand an engineering report.

I know one guy who insists he always passes on first occupancy inspection. But he is extremely violate Mexican (and a good friend), and all his homes are in a couple of cities and the inspectors know all kinds of hell with break loose if they complain about his work... ohhh, did I point out his work is impeccable. I remember one inspector failed some of his work. He made that inspector wish he was never born.

 

[socaldano]

And that is why the NEC is dumb.....

So isnt there a rule, that as long as the work was done prior to the code coming in. Unless there are well known substantial health and safety issues. Like that Panel that likes to start house fires. As NO house in the city built before 2000 would pass all the building codes with existing construction. I believe in direct conflict with existing building code. Literally if they apply it to existing work and DONT apply new codes to every house every time you add new requirements. It is a 14th amendment violation. And 90% of the houses in this county were built before 1970.

 

[socaldano]

Ok, I was asked not to do AI, but I did.. and it repeatedly cites lots of case law of pre-existing conditions and that to make me change it the city MUST PROVE it is an actual and real health and safety..not just cite code. Code actually declares their actions improper..

6. How to Cite It in a Letter or Pleading​

Existing lawful systems and structures are protected under IEBC §102.2 and Missouri Revised Statutes §§67.280, 67.410. Neither a code inspector nor municipality may compel retroactive compliance with newer editions of the building code unless the system is demonstrated to be unsafe. See also Bazeyiff v. City of St. Louis, 73 S.W.3d 609 (Mo. App. 2002); City of Dallas v. Stewart, 361 S.W.3d 562 (Tex. 2012); and Camara v. Municipal Court, 387 U.S. 523 (1967).

 

[socaldano]

Oh come on! That's ridiculous. How would that be enforced?

Easy, thanks to a bad 1967 SCOTUS ruling that all metadata is fair game. That a utility can share metadata with government without violating 4th amendment. This needs to be reviewed, as my last job at charter mobile, I saw the insane amounts of metadata is provided on your cell phone use. Every 15 minutes Verison sends a file with all the usage, who what where when, what GPS and all kinds of data I didn't bother to read.
My time at So Cal Edison, the just the meters they used then to measure useage and offset gave volumes of metadata... and todays smart meters tell everythign.

So, Ameren UE provides a monthly report to each city that requests it. The report provides the name, address and contact information for every request for "new service". Now the code officer checks to see if you have an occupancy permit, and if not, he spies on you to see if someone moves in. Then orders you to get the inspection and permit or get citations.
I tried to use Camara in the Circuit Court to be found not guilty of allowing someone to live in a house without a permit. The Circuit Court ruled it did not violation Edwards v California (city, county nor state can regulate where you live, require you to ask permission of government to move there), nor did it violate Camara which does extreme 4th amendment protections on code enforcement/building inspections.

 

[socaldano]

Ok, I was asked not to do AI, but I did.. and it repeatedly cites lots of case law of pre-existing conditions and that to make me change it the city MUST PROVE it is an actual and real health and safety..not just cite code. Code actually declares their actions improper..

6. How to Cite It in a Letter or Pleading​

Please note: EBC definition of "change of occupancy" is change of type of use... not change of residents. Wow, that is a defense for occupancy permit violations which so many new homeowners who move from elsewhere get.
One trigger is a change of occupancy (or occupancy classification). That means the use category actually changes (e.g., converting offices (Group B) into apartments (Group R-2), or apartments (R-2) into a hotel (R-1)).