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Elevator in main entry lobby

BayPointArchitect

BayPointArchitect

Sawhorse
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
516
Location
Lincoln
Elevator opens into lobby. The applicable code is NFPA 1 section 14.3.1 (8) which states that only doorways from normally occupied spaces may enter into a stair enclosure. In this case, the stairway from five stories above is open to the main entry lobby. Existing non-sprinkled apartment building. The authority having jurisdiction is identifying the elevator as being a problem because it is not a "normally occupied space". Does anyone know of a way to deal with this other than creating a fire-rated elevator lobby around the elevator opening? 2018 IBC section 1023.4 has this same language: "... openings in interior exit stairways ... shall be limited to those required for exit access to the enclosure from NORMALLY OCCUPIED spaces and for egress from the enclosure." (emphasis added). The problem is that creating a small elevator lobby within the existing lobby creates a very awkward main entry lobby space.

As always, thanks in advance.

ICC Certified Plan Reviewer
NFPA Certified Fire Plan Examiner
 
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BayPointArchitect said:
I don't think that I can be so straight forward and tell the AHJ that they are being dumb. That's not going to go over very well.
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When I was a journalist, and had politicians saying one thing and doing another, the phrase I used instead of "listen, you lying sack of ..." went a little like this
"Can you help me? I'm having difficulty reconciling your directions with section xxxx as it is commonly interpreted ....."
 
Lobby.jpg
The elevator and stairways are colored green. The lobby is colored yellow. The issue is that the green elevator does not have an elevator lobby that segregates it from the lobby - which has a six story stair dumping down into it. So I am uncertain how I can argue that this is okay.
 
14.3.1 Where this Code requires an exit to be separated from other parts of the building, the separating construction shall meet the requirements of Section 8.2 of NFPA 101 and the following:

  • (8)*
    Openings in exit enclosures shall be limited to door assemblies from normally occupied spaces and corridors and door assemblies for egress from the enclosure, unless one of the following conditions exists:
I reiterate my previous statement......
 
steveray said:
14.3.1 Where this Code requires an exit to be separated from other parts of the building, the separating construction shall meet the requirements of Section 8.2 of NFPA 101 and the following:

  • (8)*
    Openings in exit enclosures shall be limited to door assemblies from normally occupied spaces and corridors and door assemblies for egress from the enclosure, unless one of the following conditions exists:
I reiterate my previous statement......
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So what you are saying is that the unenclosed stairway (green) does not need to be separated from the unenclosed (or open) yellow lobby. And therefore the rules of 14.3.1 do not apply because we are not dealing with an “enclosed” stairway. Can you elaborate?
 
BayPointArchitect said:
So what you are saying is that the unenclosed stairway (green) does not need to be separated from the unenclosed (or open) yellow lobby. And therefore the rules of 14.3.1 do not apply because we are not dealing with an “enclosed” stairway. Can you elaborate?
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I really can't....The code section is clear....Where (NFPA 1) requires the exit to be separated (which it obviously doesn't because it is not)...Then you meet the following (which you don't have to) because it is not required to be separated...
 
steveray said:
I really can't....The code section is clear....Where (NFPA 1) requires the exit to be separated (which it obviously doesn't because it is not)...Then you meet the following (which you don't have to) because it is not required to be separated...
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How can you be so sure the non-enclosed stair is an existing non-conforming condition?
 
Yes. The A.H.J. did require that a two-hour fire-rated corridor be installed between the bottom of the six level stairway and a new exterior door. That was a few years ago before that building owner gave up and sold the building. Today, the same A.H.J. is okay with not requiring the two-hour fire-rated horizontal exit. However, the elevator opening into that same lobby (contiguous with the exit stair) is an issue.

ICC Certified Plan Reviewer
NFPA Certified Fire Plan Examiner
 
Just to verify.
  1. This is a non-fire sprinklered R2 high-rise?
  2. Egress from the stairs is through the lobby to get to a public way?
  3. There is no egress directly to the exterior from the stairwell?
  4. The lobby also has entrances into apartment units?
  5. The lobby now provides a 2 hour horizontal exit from the stairwell or elevator?
  6. The AHJ does believe that a lobby where everyone who lives in the building enters and exits all day long is a normally occupied space?
  7. There is no definition of normally occupied space?
 
jar546 said:
Just to verify.
  1. This is a non-fire sprinklered R2 high-rise?
  2. Egress from the stairs is through the lobby to get to a public way?
  3. There is no egress directly to the exterior from the stairwell?
  4. The lobby also has entrances into apartment units?
  5. The lobby now provides a 2 hour horizontal exit from the stairwell or elevator?
  6. The AHJ does believe that a lobby where everyone who lives in the building enters and exits all day long is a normally occupied space?
  7. There is no definition of normally occupied space?
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1. This is a non-fire-sprinklered apartment building but it is not more than 75 feet in height.
2. Yes. Egress from the stairs is through the lobby to the public right of way.
3. The egress between the bottom of the stairs to the exterior is through the lobby.
4. The lobby has entrances to retail tenant spaces and a restaurant. Both "M" and "A-2" occupancies.
5. The lobby does not currently provide a two-hour horizontal exit from the stairwell or elevator. But that is what we are aiming for.
6. I think it is generally assumed that the lobby will be very busy with activity throughout the day.
7. No. I have never seen a definition for "normally occupied space".
 
Did the building meet the code it was built under, or was it built before a building code was adopted?

I'm not familiar with NFPA 1. Does it have provisions for existing buildings, like NFPA 101 does?

Do the lobby walls have a 2 hour rating, so the lobby can be considered a part of the stair?

A lobby should be considered a normally occupied space, just like a corridor. Unoccupied spaces are typically spaces such as mechanical rooms, storage rooms, janitors closets, that someone only goes into a couple times a day and doesn't stay in very long.
 
BayPointArchitect said:
1. This is a non-fire-sprinklered apartment building but it is not more than 75 feet in height.
2. Yes. Egress from the stairs is through the lobby to the public right of way.
3. The egress between the bottom of the stairs to the exterior is through the lobby.
4. The lobby has entrances to retail tenant spaces and a restaurant. Both "M" and "A-2" occupancies.
5. The lobby does not currently provide a two-hour horizontal exit from the stairwell or elevator. But that is what we are aiming for.
6. I think it is generally assumed that the lobby will be very busy with activity throughout the day.
7. No. I have never seen a definition for "normally occupied space".
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Then I see no issues with your plan.
 
We are going to propose this to the State Fire Marshal to see if it is acceptable. See attachments. Just to restate the issue, the orange elevator is not otherwise separated by the green exit stair.RevisedLobby_Redacted.jpg
 
I would sooner argue the tenant spaces are not "normally occupied" except during business hours vs. an apartment building where people are living and coming and going at all hours.....See post #2
 
BayPointArchitect said:
We are going to propose this to the State Fire Marshal to see if it is acceptable. See attachments. Just to restate the issue, the orange elevator is not otherwise separated by the green exit stair.View attachment 11057
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More an exit passageway than HE...And the stair and the EP need to be separated per IBC 1023.3.1 maybe....And are you fire rating the right side of the vestibule?
 
steveray said:
I would sooner argue the tenant spaces are not "normally occupied" except during business hours vs. an apartment building where people are living and coming and going at all hours.....See post #2
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I agree with the general intent of your statement. Although the elevator is normally unoccupied, it is located within a two-hour rated shaft with doors at the main floor lobby level leaking a little (not a lot) of smoke. And the contents of the elevator are.... nothing combustible. The retail spaces on the other hand, are full of combustible goods and occupied only eight hours and five days a week. So... retail spaces occupied 24% of the time are considered "occupied". And apartments where people sleep eight hours every night are considered occupied.

I would agree that the elevator shaft within the MGM Grand Hotel contributed to 80 deaths due to smoke inhalation and carbon monoxide. But I think that the smoke / carbon monoxide detectors installed in every sleeping room and living room should mitigate that.
 
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BayPointArchitect said:
I would agree that the elevator shaft within the MGM Grand Hotel contributed to 80 deaths due to smoke inhalation and carbon monoxide. But I think that the smoke / carbon monoxide detectors installed in every sleeping room and living room should mitigate that.
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And finishes and lack of detection and lack of suppression....But the stair is already a chimney....the elevator is irrelevant, putting a lobby there helps with the elevator, it doesn't make the stair worse...
 
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