• Welcome to The Building Code Forum

    Your premier resource for building code knowledge.

    This forum remains free to the public thanks to the generous support of our Sawhorse Members and Corporate Sponsors. Their contributions help keep this community thriving and accessible.

    Want enhanced access to expert discussions and exclusive features? Learn more about the benefits here.

    Ready to upgrade? Log in and upgrade now.

Elevator lobby?

Codegeek

Codegeek

REGISTERED
Joined
Jun 17, 2011
Messages
717
Location
Kansas
We have a two story mixed use building (office/retail), Type IIB construction, sprinkler system per NFPA 13. The second floor is required to have two exits, for which we've provided two 1-hour rated exit enclosures. We also have an elevator. Per the 2009 IBC (which the AHJ has adopted), an enclosed elevator lobby is not required (708.14.1, exception #4). Keep in mind that per IBC 1022.3, elevators cannot open into an exit enclosure. So, does one create an elevator lobby so that the elevator now does not open into the exit enclosure? The image is what currently exists. We're trying to come up with some options.

View attachment 1706

View attachment 1706

/monthly_2012_06/elevator.JPG.2e3b3e6cecaf0068dc2189bc9142d1a7.JPG
 
Turn the elevator so it does not open to the stair enclosure ???

Move the stair door past the elevator if you can create enough required room
 
cda said:
Turn the elevator so it does not open to the stair enclosure ???
Click to expand...
Then the elevator would open into tenants for which it is not intended to be used.
 
and option #2???

Move the stair door past the elevator if you can create enough required room
 
make it an open stairway which is allowed under IBC for a two story building and then the elevator does not open into an exit enclosure
 
very good CD!!

But is there a question that if you come up on the elevator are you required access to two means of egress????? and if the answer is yes how are they going to get to the second exit???

Is the second floor all one tenant??
 
Coug Dad said:
make it an open stairway which is allowed under IBC for a two story building and then the elevator does not open into an exit enclosure
Click to expand...
What code section?

I thought an open stair was only permitted if the stair served less than 10 occupants or it was NOT part of the required means of egress
 
We can't use the open stair exception because we need two means of egress and it's my understanding that you still have to maintain two means of egress in addition to the open stair. If that's not correct, I'd love to be able to use the open stair exception.
 
Codegeek said:
We can't use the open stair exception because we need two means of egress and it's my understanding that you still have to maintain two means of egress in addition to the open stair. If that's not correct, I'd love to be able to use the open stair exception.
Click to expand...
I think I found it

708.2 Exception

11. A shaft enclosure shall not be required for floor openings created by unenclosed stairs or ramps in accordance with Exception 3 or 4 in Section 1016.1.

3. In other than occupancy Groups H and I, the exit access travel distance to a maximum of 50 percent of the exits is permitted to be measured from the most remote point within a building to an exit using unenclosed exit access stairways or ramps when connecting a maximum of two stories. The two connected stories shall be provided with at least two means of egress . Such interconnected stories shall not be open to other stories.

4. In other than occupancy Groups H and I, exit access travel distance is permitted to be measured from the most remote point within a building to an exit using unenclosed exit access stairways or ramps in the first and second stories above grade plane in buildings equipped throughout with an automatic sprinkler system in accordance with Section 903.3.1.1. The first and second stories above grade plane shall be provided with at least two means of egress . Such interconnected stories shall not be open to other stories.
 
MTLC is correct that open stairs are permitted as the required means of egress. In fact, in the 2012 edition you can use an open stair for four stories as the exit stair if the path of travel is met. Earlier codes limited the use of an open stair to two stories.
 
mtlogcabin said:
I think I found it 708.2 Exception

11. A shaft enclosure shall not be required for floor openings created by unenclosed stairs or ramps in accordance with Exception 3 or 4 in Section 1016.1.

3. In other than occupancy Groups H and I, the exit access travel distance to a maximum of 50 percent of the exits is permitted to be measured from the most remote point within a building to an exit using unenclosed exit access stairways or ramps when connecting a maximum of two stories. The two connected stories shall be provided with at least two means of egress . Such interconnected stories shall not be open to other stories.

4. In other than occupancy Groups H and I, exit access travel distance is permitted to be measured from the most remote point within a building to an exit using unenclosed exit access stairways or ramps in the first and second stories above grade plane in buildings equipped throughout with an automatic sprinkler system in accordance with Section 903.3.1.1. The first and second stories above grade plane shall be provided with at least two means of egress . Such interconnected stories shall not be open to other stories.
Click to expand...
To me that means we need two means of egress which are enclosed then a third would be permitted to be open. Am I missing something?
 
So, if we can meet travel distance to the exit discharge we can have an unenclosed stair as a means of egress, correct?
 
Coug Dad said:
not if you meet the common path of travel
Click to expand...
so if I am on an upper floor that requires two exits, I do not need to be able to get to both of them???

how about 1014.2.1??? and I think there is one other section
 
CDA - I'll have to ask the project architect. I'll let you know what I find out.

We had another issue on another building in the same development and the plans examiner just didn't want to buy another point of view on a vertical opening. They couldn't get beyond the definition of "atrium" and kept insisting that the opening was an atrium. We tried to argue it met one of the exceptions for the shaft opening as it was a required exit (Section 708.2, exception #11). Again I called ICC and again ICC agreed with me, but the plans examiner would not and accused me of having an attitude and no code knowledge. And to think, I used to sit on that side of the counter and I never did that to any architect or other person who had logic behind their argument. Some people apparently don't like being told, even in a polite way, that they are wrong and perhaps learn from it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top