"emergency" exits only?

[Sifu]

I have a new proposal for swinging gates used to discourage shoplifters at a major national retailer. They are proposed across the main exit aisles leading to the main exits. They swing freely when approached from the ingress side but are provided with a photo sensor that will sound an alarm when approached from the egress side, at which time they will not be free egress, but will require a force of 5lbs or less to push through. They are proposed to have "emergency exit-alarm will sound" signage. With this set up I don't see any inhibition in egress under emergency conditions, just a discouragement under normal operations. Assuming these gates do not reduce the required egress capacity does anyone know of any other requirement these would not meet? They can be wired to the fire alarm system but aren't proposed that way and when power is off they swing freely.

 

[steveray]

Doors in series? Accessibility? Sounds like you are there with the safety stuff has to meet IBC 1010....

 

[cda]

Ada compliant???

Will have to look at the section on gated and similar

 

[cda]

Do you have a product link

 

[cda]

Look at the turnstile section

says turnstile or similar

 

[Sifu]

As far as I can tell the gates will be accessible. The only provision I could see was the protruding objects section but the bottom of the gate is at 24" so based on my understanding of that section it would be cane detectable and approved.

I also already looked at the turnstile section but it refers specifically to devices that restrict travel to one direction. These gates don't restrict travel except the 5lb. force provision. It discourages travel under conditions that are not an emergency. I have never liked this but I see it all the time and I don't think it is a violation. If I did it correctly the spec is attached. The red marks are mine. I do have concerns about the egress capacity and am asking for a complete analysis of the exiting system.

 

[Sifu]

A snippet of the plan.

 

[cda]

But at anytime it appears they have register aisles to run thru

still think turnstile applies

will look at commentary on Tuesday

 

[cda]

I hate the terms

emergency exit

fire exit

one of these days that will be my code change

 

[cda]

Oh a Telgian report

To me does not address the IBC turnstile section

Plus good old human nature, they see what appears to be a barrier and go somewhere else.

anyway will look at commentary

 

[Sifu]

I think you have the same aversion to this as me. An exit is an exit. I was just in Las Vegas. Literally couldn't find my way out of one of the mega-casinos. Finally found a huge exit, complete with exit signs. It said "emergency exit, alarm will sound". Others in my group were afraid to go out, I said it was an emergency that I get out and that it had to lead to a public way so, out I went. No alarm, right to the public way. While I don't like the discouragement of it's use, I don't know of a code that prevents it. I wonder if the others with me would be discouraged in a fire alarm or other emergency. Sadly, I think some might be, that is my concern.

 

[cda]

Have them add exit signs at the barriers


See what they say!!

 

[ADAguy]

On emergency backup too?

 

[Sifu]

There is no information that leads me to believe these are on a back-up. When powered they resist opening until a 5lb force is applied. When un-powered they swing freely, not requiring the 5lb force to open. I don't think this is viewed any differently than a door or gate. It only opens when a force is applied. The only difference is the "emergency exit only, alarm will sound" signage. Much the same as I see all the time. There is a fire alarm connection if needed, but if it is free egress (not egress control) then I don't think it is required. My real concern is the signage that discourages it's use, I just don't know of a code that restricts it's use.

 

[cda]

There is no information that leads me to believe these are on a back-up. When powered they resist opening until a 5lb force is applied. When un-powered they swing freely, not requiring the 5lb force to open. I don't think this is viewed any differently than a door or gate. It only opens when a force is applied. The only difference is the "emergency exit only, alarm will sound" signage. Much the same as I see all the time. There is a fire alarm connection if needed, but if it is free egress (not egress control) then I don't think it is required. My real concern is the signage that discourages it's use, I just don't know of a code that restricts it's use.

I think you are correct

it looks like you are asking for exit analysis, so that is good,

See if it is cutting into the exit width.

I still think add exit signs there. See what they come back with.


Especially when displays start showing up around these things.

 

[cda]

Knowing me, if these were installed,,,

I would walk up and go though them.

Also, thinking someone just has to wait there, when someone walks in, you just walk out and no alarm!!!!

 

[mtlogcabin]

Change the signage to
1008.1.9.7 Delayed egress locks.
A sign shall be provided on the door located above and within 12 inches (305 mm) of the release device reading: PUSH UNTIL ALARM SOUNDS. DOOR CAN BE OPENED IN 15 [30] SECONDS.

 

[cda]

Change the signage to
1008.1.9.7 Delayed egress locks.
A sign shall be provided on the door located above and within 12 inches (305 mm) of the release device reading: PUSH UNTIL ALARM SOUNDS. DOOR CAN BE OPENED IN 15 [30] SECONDS.

they are not delayed egress devices

 

[mtlogcabin]

Code allows them to be and if you are trying to discourage shop lifting then make them such.
Then again this is Wal-Mart and their policy is not to prosecute shop lifters so lets make it easier and not delay the exit time.

 

[Yikes]

In the situation described, there is no exit delay, and the opening force does not exceed 5 lbs, and egress does not require any special knowledge or effort. I did not check exit widths, and for sake of this discussion, if opening widths are compliant, I don't see anything in the code that prohibits the installation

 

[cda]

Ok thank about it,,,,

If you allow it,

it will spread to all the Wally Worlds across the Universe...


Do you want to go down in history for that????

 

[Sifu]

But I would be forever talked about.............
No such thing as bad press.......
I do realize I may be added to the list of "but they let me do it over there" exclamations, that's why I am trying to be sure.

My real dilemma is not if they are allowed, but whether they should be treated as a "security access turnstile" as codified in 2018 IBC 1010.3.2. If so then they are still allowed but would be required to be automatically retracted upon fire alarm, sprinkler and loss of power. If they are not then as long as the egress width is met then there are no other restrictions. That section of code says they "inhibit" travel, by definition I think they do inhibit travel so that's the way I am leaning. I have seen many actual security access turnstiles, they are far more inhibiting than these, you can't walk up and push them open. But these you can, hence my dilemma. BTW, Fire approved this without comment, which is a little surprising since the plans indicate a significant loss of egress width.

 

[cda]

Wally does not require full egress width,,

especially on Black Friday.

yes as you say approved

I still think you could require exit signs above them!!!