• Welcome to The Building Code Forum

    Your premier resource for building code knowledge.

    This forum remains free to the public thanks to the generous support of our Sawhorse Members and Corporate Sponsors. Their contributions help keep this community thriving and accessible.

    Want enhanced access to expert discussions and exclusive features? Learn more about the benefits here.

    Ready to upgrade? Log in and upgrade now.

Existing back alleyway less than 44" - can it qualify as one of the exits/exit discharge? (California)

Using the majority to base your opinion off of is a logical fallacy called appeal to majority. Basically, it is the belief that since the majority of people believe something it must be true. A good example of this is when most people believed the Earth was the center of the solar system. It was not and they were all wrong.

I guess I am just having trouble understanding what is not clear with "provided for egress purposes".

Is it every door? Nope, just those provided for egress purposes.

Is it every door someone could possibly use for egress? Nope, just those provided for egress purposes.

When I can answer plain English questions with the literal wording from the code, it's clear and concise. Belief that it is anything else is likely a function of confirmation bias forcing the individual to believe they are right to either avoid cognitive dissonance or prevent damage to their ego. Maybe both.

I have yet to hear a compelling argument on why the opposing interpretation is correct, other than the concern for people's safety, which is coincidentally another logical fallacy called appeal to emotion. A well considered counter argument would focus on the the emphasis being in a different part of the clause, which may change the meaning. Evidence presented at the code change meeting where this clause was approved. Something tangible and factual about the clause itself. Anything else is just creating an excuse as to why the official is allowed to misinterpret the code to provide them powers outside of what has been lawfully provided to them.

I would agree there are times where it may be necessary to step in and work through a problem with owners and designers where the code does not really address a specific situation. This is not what is happening here.

I've been accused of a lot of things but appealing to the majority is not one of them. As to cognitive dissonance, I am fairly consistent in my beliefs. Now ego....I have one.

It is not the building official's responsibility to satisfy the safety concerns of building occupants.

My dept. is the Building Safety Dept. Your dept. appears to be the Building Accommodating Dept. It seems as though the Canadian outlook is go with the flow as much as possible whereas in my corner of the US a theory of proactive enforcement prevails.


1010.1 Doors. Means of egress doors shall meet the requirements of this section. Doors serving a means of egress system shall meet the requirements of this section and Section 1022.2. Doors provided for egress purposes in numbers greater than required by this code shall meet the requirements of this section.
Means of egress doors shall be readily distinguishable from the adjacent construction and finishes such that the doors are easily recognizable as doors. Mirrors or similar reflecting materials shall not be used on means of egress doors. Means of egress doors shall not be concealed by curtains, drapes, decorations or similar materials.


There’s more to that paragraph than just the “numbers greater than required.” It is up to the regulator to determine the purpose of a door. Examples have been proffered of doors that clearly have no relation to an egress door such as from a commercial kitchen or twenty feet above grade. So what. Does that answer the question of the six doors from the OP’s building? No it does not. The only way to know about those six doors is to see a floor plan. Common sense must be applied. Do the doors meet all of the usual parameters of an egress door? Are they easy to spot? Do they lead to the exterior and then on to a public way? Just because someone states that a door, that has the earmarks of an egress door, is there for decoration does not change reality.
 
Using the majority to base your opinion off of is a logical fallacy called appeal to majority. Basically, it is the belief that since the majority of people believe something it must be true. A good example of this is when most people believed the Earth was the center of the solar system. It was not and they were all wrong.

I guess I am just having trouble understanding what is not clear with "provided for egress purposes".

Is it every door? Nope, just those provided for egress purposes.

Is it every door someone could possibly use for egress? Nope, just those provided for egress purposes.

When I can answer plain English questions with the literal wording from the code, it's clear and concise. Belief that it is anything else is likely a function of confirmation bias forcing the individual to believe they are right to either avoid cognitive dissonance or prevent damage to their ego. Maybe both.

I have yet to hear a compelling argument on why the opposing interpretation is correct, other than the concern for people's safety, which is coincidentally another logical fallacy called appeal to emotion. A well considered counter argument would focus on the the emphasis being in a different part of the clause, which may change the meaning. Evidence presented at the code change meeting where this clause was approved. Something tangible and factual about the clause itself. Anything else is just creating an excuse as to why the official is allowed to misinterpret the code to provide them powers outside of what has been lawfully provided to them.

I would agree there are times where it may be necessary to step in and work through a problem with owners and designers where the code does not really address a specific situation. This is not what is happening here.
If you're saying the masses are asses, sure. But if the a significant number of users interpret the wording differently, its obviously not clear and concise.

It could say "Doors designed and intended for egress purposes in numbers greater than required by this code shall meet the requirements of this section." and it would more clearly support your interp. On the other hand, it could say "Doors providing egress in numbers greater than required by this code shall meet the requirements of this section." which is crystal clear for a different interp.
 
If codes were not created for peoples safety … then why do they exist? What is the purpose of EERO? Handrails on stairs? GFCI outlets?
I'm not saying they were not created for and do facilitate safety. What I'm saying is that officials appear to be trying to justify a misinterpretation of the code with "but it's for public safety". If we allow that argument to stand, what else can be required that the code does not require?
 
It is up to the regulator to determine the purpose of a door.
Maybe this is where our codes differ. Our administration section requires the designer to expressly identify the exit doors on the plan.

I would question your position that the regulator determines which doors are provided for egress. If the regulator did not decide to place a door there, how can they decide if it is for egress? If the door is not required to meet exiting requirements for size and travel distance and the designer can simply remove the door, so how can it be for egress purposes? I would agree in an existing building, the regulator is responsible for what doors are required to be maintained to ensure proper travel distance and capacity.

Also, your personal attack is another good example of a logical fallacy called an ad homonym fallacy. It also adds nothing of substance to the argument.
 
If you're saying the masses are asses, sure. But if the a significant number of users interpret the wording differently, its obviously not clear and concise.

It could say "Doors designed and intended for egress purposes in numbers greater than required by this code shall meet the requirements of this section." and it would more clearly support your interp. On the other hand, it could say "Doors providing egress in numbers greater than required by this code shall meet the requirements of this section." which is crystal clear for a different interp.
I believe willful ignorance would be a better statement. Potentially even a misunderstanding of their role in the process.

Could it be written better? Sure. Most things could. I've seen code changes simply because people had inconsistent interpretations before (i.e., they interpret it one way when it comes to one thing and another way when it comes to something else).
 
Maybe this is where our codes differ. Our administration section requires the designer to expressly identify the exit doors on the plan.

I would question your position that the regulator determines which doors are provided for egress. If the regulator did not decide to place a door there, how can they decide if it is for egress? If the door is not required to meet exiting requirements for size and travel distance and the designer can simply remove the door, so how can it be for egress purposes? I would agree in an existing building, the regulator is responsible for what doors are required to be maintained to ensure proper travel distance and capacity.

Also, your personal attack is another good example of a logical fallacy called an ad homonym fallacy. It also adds nothing of substance to the argument.
Ad Hominem…..and to the point. You taking it personal is like Dr. Fauci saying that an attack on him is an attack on science.…in reverse. Many posts from the Canadian contingent have led me to believe that Canadian code enforcement is just a tad bit too soft. But hey now, that’s just me and I’m probably a tad bit too strict. Hells Bells, there’s building officials at this forum that have said that they would fire me in a heartbeat and I’m pretty sure that I’d be run out of Canada in short order.
 
Last edited:
I would also question your position that the regulator determines which doors are provided for egress. The designer does this. Just like a regulator cannot decide what a room is used for. The regulator cannot call it a medical exam room if the designer says it's a waiting room.
 
I would also question your position that the regulator determines which doors are provided for egress. The designer does this. Just like a regulator cannot decide what a room is used for. The regulator cannot call it a medical exam room if the designer says it's a waiting room.
That’s comparing apples to oranges. If you want to talk about rooms, I mentioned a room earlier. That was a bedroom that was labeled as an office in order to not install a smoke alarm. The regulator in me said no.

Present a plan with six doors that all function as an exit in every respect. Call one door the required egress door because only one egress door is required and say nothing about the rest of the doors. Or if you like, label five doors as not required egress doors. Now depending on the situation I might agree or I might not agree but that is my prerogative. I could go along with the “not a required egress door” label and still require every code that applies to a required egress door to be applied to the five, not required, egress doors.

The doors do not become “provided for egress purposes” by a label. If the doors exist and they function as a means of egress they have been “provided”….well there you have it.

A goose waddles into a bar and orders a whiskey sour. Ya I know….the goose has self esteem issues. The bartender Shirley misunderstood and set up six whiskey sours. The goose drank five and as he stumbled towards the door he says thanks but he’s changed his mind.
Only one whiskey sour was required (the one that’s left on the bar) but six were provided. That’s how the goose got stewed.
 
Last edited:
Ad Hominem…..and to the point. You taking it personal is like Dr. Fauci saying that an attack on him is an attack on science.…in reverse. Many posts from the Canadian contingent have led me to believe that Canadian code enforcement is just a tad bit too soft. But hey now, that’s just me and I’m probably a tad bit too strict. Hells Bells, there’s building officials at this forum that have said that they would fire me in a heartbeat and I’m pretty sure that I’d be run out of Canada in short order.
I'm not sure I would agree with you. In Canada, I do not benefit from statutory immunity. The municipality I work for was sued multiple times a year before I took over. Sometimes for being too soft. Sometimes for being too strict. Always for not enforcing the code.

11 years ago they cleared house in the building inspection department and I came in. I have yet to see a single lawsuit against the municipality for the work during my tenure.
 
I have yet to see a single lawsuit against the municipality for the work during my tenure.
Not trying to start an argument … why do you think it has worked well for 11 yrs? Do you go strictly by the book? How do you handle issues like this one (this discussion about narrow alley, or possibly noncompliant exits)?
 
I'm not sure I would agree with you. In Canada, I do not benefit from statutory immunity. The municipality I work for was sued multiple times a year before I took over. Sometimes for being too soft. Sometimes for being too strict. Always for not enforcing the code.

11 years ago they cleared house in the building inspection department and I came in. I have yet to see a single lawsuit against the municipality for the work during my tenure.
I can't recall an instance when I was shielded by statutory immunity....but then that's a symptom of statutory immunity. I also can't recall the concept having been a consideration in the performance of my job. In California, lawsuits fly irregardless of statutory immunity. My jurisdiction is sued when it needs to be sued.
 
Last edited:
Not trying to start an argument … why do you think it has worked well for 11 yrs? Do you go strictly by the book? How do you handle issues like this one (this discussion about narrow alley, or possibly noncompliant exits)?

There are two basic concepts that go into effective liability mitigation for building officials in Canada based on settled law:

1. You do not get to enforce your interpretation of the code. While we are all experts, proper interpretation of the code is the least restrictive, reasonable interpretation. Building regulations encroach upon rights guaranteed under our charter (and I believe your constitution). Because some infringement is reasonable in the operation of an orderly society, the law (adopted code is considered a law) generally can accept infringements written into laws shown to be for the public good. However, because these laws infringe an guaranteed freedoms, judges will interpret them to be the lease amount of infringement possible, while being reasonable in their interpretation. There is naturally an exception to this which many of us have likely encountered, there might be a less restrictive interpretation, but it is not reasonable because it lacks consistency with the remainder of the code, or would outright create conflicts with other provisions. This is why the "reasonable" measure is so important. It falls to us to be certain that we can prove that our interpretations are "reasonable" as building officials.

2. Just because a violation exists, does not mean it needs remedied. When a violation is encountered in the course of construction, the violation must be reviewed to understand the potential impact it could have on the building users, the building itself, and any other interest groups using a three part analysis. We need to review the gravity of harm (how bad could someone get hurt), the likelihood of harm (how likely someone would get hurt), and the cost of repair (self-explanatory). Based on this outcome, some violations would not make sense to correct, and instead become learning opportunities for contractors. And I do hope they learn, because next time they are fixing it regardless.

The final thing we do, which is a significant deviation from what is standard liability mitigation practice is to admit when we make a mistake. We work with the damaged party to find solutions to the issue and to fix the process to reduce the chances of it happening again. In speaking with a friend of mine who literally makes her living suing various levels of government here, this is the most effective liability mitigation practice for governments. Judges are not very inclined to find against government entities that when presented with a problem that they exacerbated actually engage in helping to find a solution to the problem. The alternative rewards stonewalling and causing the owners to suffer further damages, which they wish to de-incentivize.

It's not that we haven't made mistakes, it's that when we do, I sit down with them in their home at their kitchen table. I listen to their side and how it affected them. I empathize with them, I tell them how sorry I am that this happened to them, and we work together to develop a solution. I've had to do this twice in my career. Both times it was awful to see how the mistakes we made really affected the owners. Both times we were successful in ensuring we helped get the issues straightened out.

More to your question, how do we handle issues like this, existing buildings are hard. Contractors know it. RDPs know it. Building officials know it. Sometimes the best you can do is the best you can do. We have a system in Canada where designers can propose an alternative to the code that meets the same level of performance. In situations like this, we would be looking at timed egress studies for the width reduction. We would also be looking at ensuring queuing at this exit is reduced to minimize any crowd crush created. Existing buildings are frequent users of this system. From a liability perspective, the designer retains liability. The building official is only responsible to ensure the designer follows the proper process for the alternative solution (which includes demonstrating their professional capacity to perform the evaluation) and the designers responsibility is for if the design actually works. If I start deciding what an exit is and what is not, I am not regulating, I am engaged in designing and have significantly more liability.
 
OK, it appears this thread has now morphed from the specific of exit doors to the general legal theory discussion of rules, evaluation and discretion. The discussion has already encompassed legal concepts of "bright line" aka "hard line" rules that require no judgement call vs. more subjective "soft rules", standards and principles, which require "reasonableness" in interpretation.

A famous example of a hard line rule is the US constitutional requirement that the President be at least 35 years old. That's a "bright line" rule. If it had said instead the President must be an "adult", that is a soft rule, because it requires a common, unchanging societal understanding of what constitutes an "adult". 18 years old? 21 years old? 25 years old? Does maturity and wisdom = adult?

Likewise, the" smoke detector in a sleeping room" example looks like a "bright line" rule, but requires a reasonable understanding of what constitutes a "sleeping room", and "reasonable" = soft rule. Who decides? Whose "reason" do we use? The property owner's? The building official? The tax assessor's recording of the # of bedrooms in a dwelling unit?
If a person sleeps on their living room couch, is the living room now a sleeping room?

"Walks like a duck, squawks like a duck = it is a duck" is a soft rule statement of "reasonableness", utilizing analogy for inference. This is not to say that soft rules are inferior to a hard-line rule; it just means that soft rules require more effort and individual attention during application, and are subject to more second-guessing.
 
Yikes, you're right. I shouldn't call it an 'alley', it's an egress court. Thank you for clarifying.

I'm sorry but I have limited info myself. I just know that there are existing area with doors that is used to get in and out the building. I haven't been there but it appears to be narrow so I'm trying to get the required code to verify if it would be compliant. The existing fence and building aren't exactly parallel so it varies, I'm not sure what the minimum width is, but people use it so I imagine it's wide enough to get through.

As for the occupant load, there's some latitude on how it's calculated. I reviewed it another way and got 24 occupants. If I exclude all unoccupied spaces like hallways and bathrooms, it would be 21 occupants. So fixating on 29 occupants being too convenient misses the point. But this is really for the AHJ to determine.

There also seems to be some moralizing about how codes should be applied or interpreted, with an implication that it's being used to justify a 'sketchy' situation. I'd rather leave all those judgements up to the AHJ and building inspector. Personally, I don't think so because this building will not be open to the general public and will only have a few people using it at any given time. There are also other exiting options that I'm considering. But all of this is irrelevant because my questions are really about the wording in the code and which sections apply to a particular situation, in this case an existing commercial property with a narrow walkway in the back.
Not an alley, a side yard, no? what is the min. side yard required for this zone? If only one exit is required then what is the purpose of the rear door?
 
Back
Top