Existing Gates - Renovated Pool

[jar546]

Publicly accessible pool. A permit is pulled to renovate the inground pool which encompasses new pavers, coping, plumbing and electrical changes, etc. The pool is out of service for months during this renovation. Basically almost everything but the size of the pool has changed.

One of the inspections is the Pool Barrier Inspection. You discover that neither of the two gates are compliant with the codes and never have been, both much less than the minimum 48". How do you handle it?

 

[steveray]

Publicly accessible pool. A permit is pulled to renovate the inground pool which encompasses new pavers, coping, plumbing and electrical changes, etc. The pool is out of service for months during this renovation. Basically almost everything but the size of the pool has changed.

One of the inspections is the Pool Barrier Inspection. You discover that neither of the two gates are compliant with the codes and never have been, both much less than the minimum 48". How do you handle it?

If it never legally existed, then they would need to fix it....

 

[Mr. Inspector]

This looks like it would be a repair according to the 2018 IEBC. If they are not working on the Pool Barrier no inspection of it is required per IEBC.

2018 ISPS has this about existing swimming pools, it looks like the pool barrier has to comply with the code that was used when it was first built.

[A] 102.2 Existing Installations
Any pool or spa and related mechanical, electrical and plumbing systems lawfully in existence at the time of the adoption of this code shall be permitted to have their use and maintenance continued if the use, maintenance or repair is in accordance with the original design and no hazard to life, health or property is created.

[A] 102.3 Maintenance
Pools and spas and related mechanical, electrical and plumbing systems, both existing and new, and parts thereof, shall be maintained in proper operating condition in accordance with the original design in a safe and sanitary condition. Devices or safeguards that are required by this code shall be maintained in compliance with the edition of the code under which they were installed.
The owner or the owner's authorized agent shall be responsible for maintenance of systems. To determine compliance with this provision, the code official shall have the authority to require any system to be reinspected.


[A] 102.4 Additions, Alterations or Repairs
Additions, alterations, renovations or repairs to any pool, spa or related system shall conform to that required for a new system without requiring the existing systems to comply with the requirements of this code. Additions, alterations or repairs shall not cause existing systems to become unsafe, insanitary or overloaded.
Minor additions, alterations, renovations and repairs to existing systems shall be permitted in the same manner and arrangement as in the existing system, provided that such repairs or replacement are not hazardous and are approved.

If the IFC is used there, I am not aware of anything about this is in it. Of course, there may be local ordinances that are stricter.

 

[steveray]

This looks like it would be a repair according to the 2018 IEBC. If they are not working on the Pool Barrier no inspection of it is required per IEBC.

[A] 102.2 Existing Installations
Any pool or spa and related mechanical, electrical and plumbing systems lawfully in existence at the time of the adoption of this code

And there is the rub...

 

[Mr. Inspector]

And there is the rub...

Interesting that only the mechanical, electrical and plumbing systems, not the Pool Barrier, needs to be maintained. if no local ordnance I can't see how the requirements for a Pool Barrier in the ISPSC can be legally required.

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

If a pool barrier was required at the time of original construction, and the gates didn't comply with whatever regulation applied at that time, it has always been in violation. Now that the violation has been documented, it needs to be corrected.

As one of our former State Building Inspectors often stated: "A violation is always a violation."

Violations don't magically become grandfathered because nobody noticed ...

 

[jar546]

Now that the violation has been documented, it needs to be corrected.

Correct. It was never compliant from the day it was installed.

 

[Mr. Inspector]

Correct. It was never compliant from the day it was installed.

So, they never got a permit when the pool was built? or it was a bad inspection?

The owner or the owner's authorized agent shall be responsible for maintenance of systems. To determine compliance with this provision, the code official shall have the authority to require any system to be reinspected.

Jar, do you have the power to require a reinspection as stated above. I don't think we can here once they have a C O.

 

[ICE]

I don't think we can here once they have a C O.

You have to want it.

 

[jar546]

So, they never got a permit when the pool was built? or it was a bad inspection?

The owner or the owner's authorized agent shall be responsible for maintenance of systems. To determine compliance with this provision, the code official shall have the authority to require any system to be reinspected.

Jar, do you have the power to require a reinspection as stated above. I don't think we can here once they have a C O.

It was permitted and had an inadequate inspection.

A pool renovation triggered a pool barrier inspection, just like any pool final inspection, as the barrier is part of life safety.

The mentality of enforcement in your state is one that looks for excuses not to do things out of an imaginary fear of losing one's job at the expense of the safety of the public for common sense building code enforcement and administration, one of the many reasons I left that state. You can't do your job if you are in constant fear of losing your job for simply doing your job.

 

[Mr. Inspector]

As a for profit 3rd party inspection company, we don't want to do an inspection without being paid before we do it too.
For example, we do have one township that has adopted the IFC but we don't enforce it because we don't get paid to do it.

 

[jar546]

As a for profit 3rd party inspection company, we don't want to do an inspection without being paid before we do it too.
For example, we do have one township that has adopted the IFC but we don't enforce it because we don't get paid to do it.

Once again, you're conflating contract limitations with the legal obligations of a third-party inspection agency. Your contract may outline the scope of services, but it cannot override state or locally adopted codes that are part of the municipality's building safety ordinances. The 2018 IEBC and ISPSC are clear: when alterations or renovations trigger compliance, existing deficiencies that impact safety must be addressed. Ignoring non-compliance from the start only perpetuates liability for your agency and the jurisdiction. Inspectors are hired to enforce codes, not interpret contracts to avoid doing their job.

 

[steveray]

It was permitted and had an inadequate inspection.

Well that is a pool barrier of a different color.....Sounds like it was specifically approved. Calling something unsafe that was specifically declared safe gets weird and potentially illegal...Sounds like someone needs to submit a code change to the IEBC requiring barrier updates on pool replacement.

 

[jar546]

Well that is a pool barrier of a different color.....Sounds like it was specifically approved. Calling something unsafe that was specifically declared safe gets weird and potentially illegal...Sounds like someone needs to submit a code change to the IEBC requiring barrier updates on pool replacement.

Pool safety is paramount. As a former flight paramedic who knows what it is like to cut a little pink dress off of a lifeless 2-year-old girl and attempt resuscitation only to have to look at the parents later after they are told their daughter is dead because no one paid attention for 2 minutes and that is why she is dead, I take pool safety seriously. If the owners want to file an appeal against our decision, let them. Until then, pool barriers are more important than a third-party contract or even my job. There is a system in place if someone does not agree, and if the appeals board wants to take on that life safety responsibility, I can at least know I tried to do the right thing.

 

[steveray]

I get it Jeff and respect your approach, but the next step is retro sprinklering buildings because you have pulled dead bodies out of fires and where does it stop?....We in CT don't really have that "flexibility" and I would always send them to the State to get an interpretation if I felt it was unclear or strongly enough to take it to the wall. Without seeing exactly what you are seeing in the field, I don't know what I would do in your position. I can tell you that I have chased local codes back to the 1960's to get barriers installed on pools where there were none in the 2000's.....

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

As a for profit 3rd party inspection company, we don't want to do an inspection without being paid before we do it too.
For example, we do have one township that has adopted the IFC but we don't enforce it because we don't get paid to do it.

So who does enforce it?

If it was adopted by a township and they don't have anyone enforcing it, they (the township) could be facing a HUGE liability if there were ever a death or serious injury that could be attributed to a violation of a code they adopted but chose not to enforce. That's an absolutely idiotic situation. Better to now adopt it than to adopt it and then officially ignore it.

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

Well that is a pool barrier of a different color.....Sounds like it was specifically approved. Calling something unsafe that was specifically declared safe gets weird and potentially illegal...Sounds like someone needs to submit a code change to the IEBC requiring barrier updates on pool replacement.

The codes do not allow an AHJ to "approve" a violation. Remember Chris Laux:

"A violation is always a violation."

See IBC 104.6, 105.4, 110.1, and ISPSC 104.6, 105.4.2, 107.2, 110.1.

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

So, they never got a permit when the pool was built? or it was a bad inspection?

The owner or the owner's authorized agent shall be responsible for maintenance of systems. To determine compliance with this provision, the code official shall have the authority to require any system to be reinspected.

Jar, do you have the power to require a reinspection as stated above. I don't think we can here once they have a C O.

As a contract third-party inspection agency, you may not have the authority, but whoever the legally-appointed AHJ is certainly has the authority -- and the responsibility. You can't be on a site to inspect work being done three feet away from an obvious and visible violation and say you have no authority or duty to notice the violation.

 

[jar546]

I get it Jeff and respect your approach, but the next step is retro sprinklering buildings because you have pulled dead bodies out of fires and where does it stop?....We in CT don't really have that "flexibility" and I would always send them to the State to get an interpretation if I felt it was unclear or strongly enough to take it to the wall. Without seeing exactly what you are seeing in the field, I don't know what I would do in your position. I can tell you that I have chased local codes back to the 1960's to get barriers installed on pools where there were none in the 2000's.....

A known violation would have been a violation under the IPMC which is also adopted in many cases. It is not going to the extreme such as what you are describing. This is a small dollar fix for a life safety issue that was missed at the initial inspection and finally caught during renovation. Just because one of your inspectors missed it 10 years ago when it was a code is not an excuse to let a life safety violation continue.

 

[Mr. Inspector]

I don't think it is any different than doing an inspection for a permit where they are adding a new receptacle in an existing house, and you notice that the bedroom window is too small, or the basement stairway is almost ready to fall down. I can suggest they get it up to code, but that's all.

 

[jar546]

I don't think it is any different than doing an inspection for a permit where they are adding a new receptacle in an existing house, and you notice that the bedroom window is too small, or the basement stairway is almost ready to fall down. I can suggest they get it up to code, but that's all.

You are not seeing the forest through the trees.

 

[Inspector Gadget]

Well that is a pool barrier of a different color.....Sounds like it was specifically approved. Calling something unsafe that was specifically declared safe gets weird and potentially illegal...Sounds like someone needs to submit a code change to the IEBC requiring barrier updates on pool replacement.

Dunno about the laws in the Excited States, but the Common Law north of the border sets some pretty basic and common-sense precedents. In a nutshell, if I see a violation that someone else has overlooked, and I have some scope of competence/authority, I have an obligation to take action. Doing nothing is not an option.

Translated into practical terms, if I wander onto a building that some other AHJ/BO has "approved" and I see clear and obvious violations of Code that were never acceptable under any previous Code, I should do *something.* That doesn't mean loading up on orders to comply, but the issues should be communicated to the building owner, at the *very* least.

 

[Mr. Inspector]

Translated into practical terms, if I wander onto a building that some other AHJ/BO has "approved" and I see clear and obvious violations of Code that were never acceptable under any previous Code, I should do *something.* That doesn't mean loading up on orders to comply, but the issues should be communicated to the building owner, at the *very* least.

One problem here is we did not have any codes until 20 years ago, after 95% of the buildings here were built.

 

[ICE]

I was at a police supply store purchasing a ticket book for my correction slips. As I paid, the lady behind the counter said, "Stay safe out there." I replied that I am not a police officer. She asked what I was and when I told her that I am a building inspector she said, "Oh that's much worse. A cop can take their car and you can take the house."

There was a day when I observed a 6' tall split-face fence leaning 45° over a sidewalk. Two little girls were walking under the leaning wall. I approached the property owner, an elderly woman and her son. I was adament that the wall was an extreme hazard and must be dealt with immediately. There is a swimming pool in the yard so a temporary fence was required while they sorted out what to replace the barrier with.

A few weeks later I drove by and the wall was still there and leaning a little more. I stopped again and went down the same road as before only this time I gave them seventy-two hours to comply. On the fourth day it had not been done. I took a different approach and told them that I would have a County crew demo the block wall and attach a lien to the property tax bill. The son perked right up and the elderly lady asked about the temporay barrier. I told them that a barrier isn't required when I do the demo because we will put the demolished wall in the pool. You will be able to walk on water, so to speak.

The wall was gone and a temp fence was up in two days.

In the days before cell phones I had a case with the fence removed and no barrier. I tried to talk the owner into erecting a barrier to avail. On my last visit I didn't spend much time talking about dead children and simply asked to use the phone. The lady asked who I wanted to call and I told her that I will call the Fire Dept. That changed her demeanor. I explained that the FD has big pumps and I was fixing to drain the pool. Well I didn't have to make the call.

I both of these stories I had no authority to do what I did. I got the job done. The choice is yours. You can be a building inspector or just another guy with a pad of correction slips.

You're not a building inspector unless you are prepared to 'take the house'.