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Existing historical theater adding seats in balcony.

Yankee Chronicler said:
Based on the sketch, I think the entire balcony and its associated lobby can be considered to be a mezzanine.
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In my experience with historic theatres - I've worked on quite a few restorations and have toured many many more - it's rare that an upper seating level isn't well over a third. Can happen, just not usually.

As far as including the upper lobby as part of "the mezzanine" I wouldn't. An essential part of a mezzanine is it's openess to the main floor and the ability to see a hazard, like a fire. That view is the reason for so many relaxations from a second floor requirement.
 
bill1952 said:
As far as including the upper lobby as part of "the mezzanine" I wouldn't. An essential part of a mezzanine is it's openess to the main floor and the ability to see a hazard, like a fire. That view is the reason for so many relaxations from a second floor requirement.
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But mezzanines are not required to be open. From the 2021 IBC:

505.2.3 Openness. A mezzanine shall be open and unobstructed
to the room in which such mezzanine is located except
for walls not more than 42 inches (1067 mm) in height,
columns and posts.
Exceptions:
1. Mezzanines or portions thereof are not required to
be open to the room in which the mezzanines are
located, provided that the occupant load of the
aggregate area of the enclosed space is not greater
than 10.
2. A mezzanine having two or more exits or access to
exits is not required to be open to the room in which
the mezzanine is located.
3. Mezzanines or portions thereof are not required to
be open to the room in which the mezzanines are
located, provided that the aggregate floor area of the
enclosed space is not greater than 10 percent of the
mezzanine area.
4. In industrial facilities, mezzanines used for control
equipment are permitted to be glazed on all sides.
5. In occupancies other than Groups H and I, which
are no more than two stories above grade plane and
equipped throughout with an automatic sprinkler
system in accordance with Section 903.3.1.1, a mezzanine
having two or more exits or access to exits
shall not be required to be open to the room in
which the mezzanine is located.
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And from the Commentary:

Exception 2 permits enclosure of the mezzanine
based on at least two means of egress being provided.
Since mezzanines are elevated, means of egress is typically
by either open exit access stairways or enclosed
interior exit stairways.
. . .
Exception 5 permits enclosure of a mezzanine in a
building that is fully protected by a sprinkler system
and limited to two stories. While Exception 5 has more
restrictions than Exception 2, the allowances for enclosure
of the mezzanine are essentially the same where
there are two means of egress provided.
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And is the upper lobby "open to the room in which the mezzanine is located", the orchestra seating? You think the vomitory makes it open.

I appreciate as an enforcer you only look at the code. As a designer I know that complying with the code is a necessary condition but sometimes not sufficient.

Probably like most theatre balconies/mezzanines the only means of egress is through the lobby.
 
bill1952 said:
And is the upper lobby "open to the room in which the mezzanine is located", the orchestra seating? You think the vomitory makes it open.

I appreciate as an enforcer you only look at the code. As a designer I know that complying with the code is a necessary condition but sometimes not sufficient.

Probably like most theatre balconies/mezzanines the only means of egress is through the lobby.
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No, I don't think the vomitory makes the lobby open. I quoted the excerpt from the IBC that allows mezzanines to be enclosed. Does the upper lobby have two stairs?

For what it's worth, I am also a licensed architect, and I had been been practicing architecture for 20 years before obtaining a license as a building official. I maintain both licenses.

As for compliance with the code being necessary but sometimes not sufficient . . . when is that NOT sufficient? One of our former State Building Inspectors (who was also an architect) often stated that "The code is the least you can accept and the most you can require,." The professional standard of care for architect professional liability does not, and never has, require going beyond complying with the code.
 
bill1952 said:
In my experience with historic theatres - I've worked on quite a few restorations and have toured many many more - it's rare that an upper seating level isn't well over a third. Can happen, just not usually.

As far as including the upper lobby as part of "the mezzanine" I wouldn't. An essential part of a mezzanine is it's openess to the main floor and the ability to see a hazard, like a fire. That view is the reason for so many relaxations from a second floor requirement.
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There is a 8' wide opening between the balcony and the 2nd floor lobby which I would think make it part of the mezzanine. If the lobby is not considered as part of the mezzanine, would it be a 2nd floor or a second mezzanine?

The lobby has to 2 stairways to the main floor and there are two exit doors on both sides of the balcony that leads to outside stairways. Building is not sprinklered.

They did not show me the mezzanine sq. ft. So I don't know yet if it is less than 3,000 sq ft and not required to be accessible. But there is nothing accessible on the mezzanine at this time so it does not need to be accessible if they do the following:

Wheelchair spaces are required but there is an exception that says they can have all the wheelchair spaces on the main floor.
For the amount of wheelchair spaces do they need to go by the amount of new seating or the whole theater?
Same question for the 5% of Designated aisle seats that are required.

I am thinking that I will tell them that if all the required wheelchair spaces and designated aisle seats are put on the main floor the mezzanine will not be required to be accessible.
 
I think the lobby is a second floor and a room separate from the balcony. I see nothing that cause it to be a mezzanine, and I doubt it's only a third of main floor, on it own or in combination with the balcony seating. Aren't there doors between lobby and upper balcony, and isn't the ol more than 19?

With the restored last 2 rows, what is seat count of balcony? Under 300 and under a third of main floor seat count (something I proposed and fought for a long time ago) and they're home free.

I would certainly base the number of wheel chair spaces and designated aisle seats on the total seat count - main floor and balcony. Designated aisle seat count will be high because historic theatres tend to have a higher proportion of aisle seats to non-aisle seats than newer theatres but so be it. (I have a project where all the main floor aisle seats meet the requirements for a designated aisle seat. Took a long time to convince people it want necessary to stick a lable on every aisle seat. Universal design.)

I applaud your conclusion of improving main floor accessibility, and not requiring an elevator to second floor. And not easy in historic theatres to incorporate accessible seating into a balcony. (Possible in a many multi million dollar renovation but this seems like the typical old theatre with a lot of love but little hope of raising 20 million or more.)
 
no doors on the stairways from one lobby to the other. But I'm not concerned with the size of the mezzanine anymore.
If they put the required wheelchair and designated aisle seats on the main floor, I only need to require this section for the accessible route, except my state would not let me approve an alternative of these sections. They may need to use the exception for entrances because the main entrance is all stairs.

IEBC 305.9 Historic buildings. These provisions shall apply to
facilities designated as historic structures that undergo alterations
or a change of occupancy, unless technically infeasible.
Where compliance with the requirements for accessible
routes, entrances or toilet rooms would threaten or destroy the
historic significance of the facility, as determined by the
authority having jurisdiction, the alternative requirements of
Sections 305.9.1 through 305.9.4 for that element shall be
permitted.
Exception: Type B dwelling or sleeping units required by
Section 1107 of the International Building Code are not
required to be provided in historic buildings.
305.9.1 Site arrival points. Not fewer than one accessible
route from a site arrival point to an accessible entrance
shall be provided.
305.9.2 Multiple-level buildings and facilities. An accessible
route from an accessible entrance to public spaces on
the level of the accessible entrance shall be provided.
305.9.3 Entrances. Not fewer than one main entrance
shall be accessible.
Exception: If a public entrance cannot be made accessible,
an accessible entrance that is unlocked while the
building is occupied shall be provided; or, a locked
accessible entrance with a notification system or
remote monitoring shall be provided.
Signs complying with Section 1111 of the International
Building Code shall be provided at the public
entrance and the accessible entrance.
 
Prompted by the pists here, last week I asked technical assistance at the Access Board:

"In the auditorium of a performing arts theatre, are the main floor and balcony seating the same or separate primary function areas?"

I received this reply today:

"Any area where people carry out one or more of the major activities for which a facility is used is considered to be a “primary function area”. For example, the dining area of a restaurant, the meeting rooms in a conference center, the waiting room and examination rooms at a doctor’s office, the customer service area of a retail shop, and other areas where the public is served are primary function areas. The main floor and balcony seating area of an auditorium of a performing arts theatre would be included as a primary function area."

I believe this supports my position that all the seating in a single auditorium, whether on one or more levels, is a single primary function area. I will continue to research this with present and past access board employees who serve on committees I'm on, and probably with ICC staff as well.
 
Rick18071 said:
Interesting. If you had two offices with a hall between them, are they both the primary function area or are they two primary function areas?
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Well, if sharing same computer and files, talking to same people at same time, and entering and leaving together, like experiencing the same event on a stage, possibly the same primary function area.
 
bill1952 said:
Prompted by the pists here, last week I asked technical assistance at the Access Board:

"In the auditorium of a performing arts theatre, are the main floor and balcony seating the same or separate primary function areas?"

I received this reply today:

"Any area where people carry out one or more of the major activities for which a facility is used is considered to be a “primary function area”. For example, the dining area of a restaurant, the meeting rooms in a conference center, the waiting room and examination rooms at a doctor’s office, the customer service area of a retail shop, and other areas where the public is served are primary function areas. The main floor and balcony seating area of an auditorium of a performing arts theatre would be included as a primary function area."

I believe this supports my position that all the seating in a single auditorium, whether on one or more levels, is a single primary function area. I will continue to research this with present and past access board employees who serve on committees I'm on, and probably with ICC staff as well.
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I disagree, but that's the problem with the English language. I have read that there's a provision in our Constitution that is interpreted in opposing ways, all because of a comma.

You see the answer from the Access Board as grouping "the main floor and the balcony seating area" into a single primary function area. Knowing that the ADA requires distribution of accessible seats on the basis of ticket price and viewing angle, I interpret the Access Board's answer as "the main floor is a primary function area and the balcony seating area is a primary function area."

But I'm not the AHJ, and it ultimately comes down to what your AHJ thinks the code says.
 
bill1952 said:
Well, if sharing same computer and files, talking to same people at same time, and entering and leaving together, like experiencing the same event on a stage, possibly the same primary function area.
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The codes don't define "primary function area," but the IEBC defines "primary function":

PRIMARY FUNCTION. A primary function is a major
activity for which the facility is intended. Areas that contain
a primary function include, but are not limited to, the
customer services lobby of a bank, the dining area of a cafeteria,
the meeting rooms in a conference center, as well as
offices and other work areas in which the activities of the
public accommodation or other private entity using the facility
are carried out. Mechanical rooms, boiler rooms, supply
storage rooms, employee lounges or locker rooms, janitorial
closets, entrances, corridors and restrooms are not areas
containing a primary function.
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This definition expressly states that entrances, corridors, and restrooms are NOT primary function areas. Therefore, in an office building, two individual offices on opposite sides of a corridor cannot be one primary function area. I think the definition is pretty clear that each individual room or space is "an area containing a primary function," not the overall office floor plate as a whole. And I think that same approach applies to the theater balcony. The orchestra and the balcony are two separate spaces, each containing the primary function of seating to view the performance.
 
Yankee Chronicler said:
The codes don't define "primary function area," but the IEBC defines "primary function":



This definition expressly states that entrances, corridors, and restrooms are NOT primary function areas. Therefore, in an office building, two individual offices on opposite sides of a corridor cannot be one primary function area. I think the definition is pretty clear that each individual room or space is "an area containing a primary function," not the overall office floor plate as a whole. And I think that same approach applies to the theater balcony. The orchestra and the balcony are two separate spaces, each containing the primary function of seating to view the performance.
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So a 200 seat theater with 150 on the main floor and 50 in the balcony is two primary function areas (ADA term) and a 10,000 seat arena or stadium that is a single seating section, maybe several stories high, is a single primary function area. And they both require dispersion of wheel chair spaces

Having worked on the planning and design of well over 100 theaters and toured and studied many times that, they're treated as on room, one space, with one purpose. What I don't understand is if you believe they are separate primary function areas, what are the separate functions? There must be something different in the function of two separate primary function areas.
 
I didn't say they are separate functions. I said they are separate "areas," each of which contains the same primary function.

How is this any different from two offices on opposite sides of a corridor being two separate primary function areas? They CAN'T be the same primary function area, because the definition excludes the corridor between them, but they obviously contain the same function: office work.
 
Yankee Chronicler said:
I didn't say they are separate functions. I said they are separate "areas," each of which contains the same primary function.

How is this any different from two offices on opposite sides of a corridor being two separate primary function areas? They CAN'T be the same primary function area, because the definition excludes the corridor between them, but they obviously contain the same function: office work.
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But they aren't working on exactly the same thing at the same time with the same sound and lighting, same action, etc, like a person in the balcony and orchestra are.
 
bill1952 said:
But they aren't working on exactly the same thing at the same time with the same sound and lighting, same action, etc, like a person in the balcony and orchestra are.
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It's purely a question of interpretation at this point. I think we agree that the primary function in a theater building is for patrons to view the play/movie/opera/show. The question is whether a balcony seating area and the orchestra seating area are one area or two areas. I think they are two areas serving the same primary function; you think they are one area.

I'm not the AHJ, so my opinion is worth what you paid for it.
 
bill1952 said:
And I'm primarily interested in the opinions of the Access Board and DOJ.
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Good luck. In 45 years of being an accessible design advocate and consultant, I have never heard of anyone getting an opinion from the DOJ before they haul you into court. You might get an opinion from the Access Board, but I wouldn't hold your breath.

The federal government's assistance for ADA questions is the 800 telephone number they provide. This number connects to regional technical assistance call centers, which are private contractors under contract to the government. The people who man the phones are not the DOJ and they are not the Access board. Unfortunately, in recent years my sense is that they also aren't very smart. In the 1990s I called the 800 number fairly frequently, and I generally found their advice to be helpful. In recent years, each and every call has left me shaking my head in disbelief over the advice and information provided. I no longer call -- I consider it to be a complete waste of time.
 
That's the advantage of being on a code committee with members from the DOJ and Access Board, and attending the Board's public hearings.
 
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