Existing panel working space

[Mr. Inspector]

I know an new panel requires working space but when does an existing panel require working space or dedicated panelboard space? Had inspected some work done on existing panels that obviously did not have any working space or dedicated panelboard space when they were new. To move a panel can be a lot of work and expense, and if a poor person or elderly with medical problems needs power right away because of a storm or other reason I hate to delay it or make them wait a long time to get a busy electrician or cost.

1. When they a circuit is added.
2. Adding a feeder to a sub panel.
3. Reintroduction of power on a panel with the main disconnect.
4. Only replacing the grounding electrode conductor.
5. Change the size of a circuit.
6. Extend an existing circuit.
7. Replacing a circuit of the same size,
8. replacement of a panel
9. Major alterations without any changes to the panel
10. Replacing breakers (regular to arc-fault or GFI).

 

[Keystone]

Replacement of a panel, yes.
Other scenarios, if it is deemed a hazard addressed on a case-by-case basis.

 

[jar546]

Replacing a panel is considered a Repair under the IEBC. The IEBC refers Electrical Repairs back to the NFPA 70.

Then there is this in the IEBC:

401.2 Compliance.​

The work shall not make the building less complying than it was before the repair was undertaken. Work on nondamaged components that is necessary for the required repair of damaged components shall be considered part of the repair and shall not be subject to requirements for alterations.

The NEC is silent on existing installations, therefore I always use this question to make a determination:

Was the equipment code compliant when it was installed?

If yes, they I leave it alone, if not, then they have to comply.

 

[wwhitney]

I know an new panel requires working space but when does an existing panel require working space or dedicated panelboard space? Had inspected some work done on existing panels that obviously did not have any working space or dedicated panelboard space when they were new.

What sort of working space violations are you finding?

For an existing dwelling unit and a panel under 200A, there is no height requirement on the working space, NEC 110.26(A)(3) Exception 2. So what's required is 30" of width and 36" of depth in front of the panelboard.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[jar546]

What sort of working space violations are you finding?

For an existing dwelling unit and a panel under 200A, there is no height requirement on the working space, NEC 110.26(A)(3) Exception 2. So what's required is 30" of width and 36" of depth in front of the panelboard.

Cheers, Wayne

I am not answering for him but I will give you an idea of what we run across.

• Main panelboard inside the kitchen cabinet behind dishes with the cover removed.
• Main panelboard inside a clothes closet.
• Main panelboard inside a laundry closet.
• Main panelboard in a laundry room behind the washer and dryer.
• Main panelboard on a wall where a kitchen was reconfigured hiding the panelboard along the side of the fridge wall, hidden.

All 110.26 issues.

This is an excellent thread because this happens all the time and it seems to be handles on a case by case basis.

 

[BN4537]

We mostly leave stuff alone unless it is new. There may not have been any local regulation at the time it was installed, so it likely did comply when installed no matter how bad it is. Below is how we are likely to handle it:

1. When they a circuit is added. - No
2. Adding a feeder to a sub panel. - No
3. Reintroduction of power on a panel with the main disconnect. - No
4. Only replacing the grounding electrode conductor. - No
5. Change the size of a circuit. - No
6. Extend an existing circuit. - Did they move the existing subpanel? If so, they need to comply. If not, we don't worry about it.
7. Replacing a circuit of the same size, - No
8. replacement of a panel - Yes, absolutely, although if no acceptable location is available we will compromise (a little) and accept the least bad position.
9. Major alterations without any changes to the panel - Not unless they made the existing clearance smaller.
10. Replacing breakers (regular to arc-fault or GFI). - No

 

[ICE]

Working clearance is not a common problem with existing service panels. When I do find it there is usually some other reason fo my being there. Solar contractors tend to not know about electrical code so they will do some odd things with replacement service equipment.

 

[steveray]

Assuming it is legally existing.....We send them to the State for a modification if they are "adding AMPs" 100->200 upgrade and PV backfeed under the "making it less safe" vision....And the State approves it....

 

[Mr. Inspector]

In both commercial and residential i have inspected these existing panels, but the work that they actually did complies:
(Yes or No to replace or repair panel)
Behind or above:
1. appliances,
2.bunk beds,
3. headboards,
4. sinks,
5. plumbing,
6. stairways,
7. dryer vents,
8. storage items,
9. behind a sub pump well (had to put a board over it to inspect).
Also:
10. in cloths closets,
11. outdoor panels that are not listed for outside
12. non-weather tight connectors outside
13. in bathrooms
14. where the door does not open 90 degrees.
15. Rusted out or damaged panels
16. existing panels with unused openings and open breakers spaces?
17. existing wiring with no or broken connectors or screws missing.
18. existing panels that have existing openings that were made with a jig saw with sharp edges only existing wiring in it.
19. screws missing on panel

 

[ICE]

What would you recommend with this? The woman stated that it has existed for a few years.


Should there be a minimum height above grade?

 

[ICE]

Indoor outdoor and a working space violation??? Do you agree?

 

[Mr. Inspector]

What would you recommend with this? The woman stated that it has existed for a few years.
View attachment 13862

Should there be a minimum height above grade?

View attachment 13863

if first photo is for a service inspection i would require a point of attachment on the mast and guide wires to help support the mast if too high.
I can't tell what is wrong with the second photo.
The next post I don't know what the outside box is listed for.