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Exit also entrance?

D

DJ4827

Member
Joined
May 9, 2011
Messages
21
Good afternoon all

Code is 2009 IBC. I have an M occupancy with a mezzanine, occupant load is 8 persons. This is served by a single enclosed stair, with a door at the bottom of the stair well leading to the exterior exit discharge. The stair is both the entrance to, and the exit from, the mezzanine. The question is whether the stair is an exit, or an exit access component, because it is also the entrance. The AHJ has expressed the view that that the clauses in 1020 saying that exits cannot be used for any purpose other than exiting mean that exits can't also be entrances. If so, I would have to call the stair an exit access component, the exit would be the door at the bottom of the stair well, and I would have to measure the 75' maximum travel distance required by 1021.2 to the bottom door, not to the door at the top of the stair. This would substantially restrict the possible area of the mezzanine. The 2009 IBC Commentary for 1020.1, however, says that the intent is to keep storage, furniture and work spaces out of exits, not to to prevent exits from being used for other circulation purposes than exiting. As I read the commentary, provided the door/stair/stairwell complies with all the requirements for exits, the door at the top of the stair could be an exit door, and I could measure the 75' travel distance from this door, and have a larger mezzanine.

How would you deal with this?

Thanks
 
EXIT. That portion of a means of egress system which is separated from other interior spaces of a building or structure by fire-resistance-rated construction and opening protectives as required to provide a protected path of egress travel between the exit access and the exit discharge . Exits include exterior exit doors at the level of exit discharge , vertical exit enclosures , exit passageways , exterior exit stairways , exterior exit ramps and horizontal exits

Is the stair built as a verticle exit enclosure, fire rated and protected openings, then it is an exit if not then it is part of the exit access end exceeds the allowable travel distance
 
The AHJ has expressed the view that that the clauses in 1020 saying that exits cannot be used for any purpose other than exiting mean that exits can't also be entrances.

We have this in our code.....I wonder how they would feel about it.......

(Amd) 1024.2 Assembly main exit. Group A occupancies that have an occupant load of greater than 300 shall be provided with a main entrance that is also the main exit. In other Group A occupancies that have a single main entrance, such main entrance shall also be the main exit.

I am pretty sure you can go up and down stairs.....
 
The travel distance is to the exit enclosure. I agree with the commentary.

How does one get to the next floor when the elevator is out of service?

Francis
 
Place the door at the top of the stairs and rate the stair enclosure to the (exterior) exit door,

or place the door at the bottom and (possibly) exceed the travel distance?

This will be a cost factored solution (i.e. - which is cheaper & more feasible for the owner

to comply with the code).

Francis,

What elevator ?

This is served by a single enclosed stair, with a door at the bottom of the stair well leading to the exterior exit discharge.
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Last edited by a moderator:
If the stair is built has a vertical enclosure, sec. 1020.1 requires that level of protection be extended to the exit discharged
 
Well you hear something new every day

Cannot use an exit for an entrance

Not normally is a stair used as an entrance, but have seen it done.

Like someone else said if say if one business had three floors could they go up the stairs to the next floor???

Or would they be in violation of the code????
 
cda said:
Well you hear something new every dayCannot use an exit for an entrance

Not normally is a stair used as an entrance, but have seen it done.

Like someone else said if say if one business had three floors could they go up the stairs to the next floor???

Or would they be in violation of the code????
Click to expand...
Who said you can't? Or what code?
 
What goes up must come down. Perhaps they should speak to ingress, mainly concern is to get you outta there not inta there.

Countless places have one way in and out.
 
kilitact said:
Who said you can't? Or what code?
Click to expand...
the great code book gods::: """1020 saying that exits cannot be used for any purpose other than exiting""""

You are not exiting!!!!!!!!!!!!! by going up the stairs!!!
 
cda said:
the great code book gods::: """1020 saying that exits cannot be used for any purpose other than exiting""""You are not exiting!!!!!!!!!!!!! by going up the stairs!!!
Click to expand...
An exit shall not be used for any function that interferes with its function as a means of egress.

Are you citing all of the one stairway places?
 
kilitact said:
An exit shall not be used for any function that interferes with its function as a means of egress. Are you citing all of the one stairway places?
Click to expand...
Are you saying any exit?????????
 
DJ4827 said:
Good afternoon allCode is 2009 IBC. I have an M occupancy with a mezzanine, occupant load is 8 persons. This is served by a single enclosed stair, with a door at the bottom of the stair well leading to the exterior exit discharge. The stair is both the entrance to, and the exit from, the mezzanine. The question is whether the stair is an exit, or an exit access component, because it is also the entrance. The AHJ has expressed the view that that the clauses in 1020 saying that exits cannot be used for any purpose other than exiting mean that exits can't also be entrances. If so, I would have to call the stair an exit access component, the exit would be the door at the bottom of the stair well, and I would have to measure the 75' maximum travel distance required by 1021.2 to the bottom door, not to the door at the top of the stair. This would substantially restrict the possible area of the mezzanine. The 2009 IBC Commentary for 1020.1, however, says that the intent is to keep storage, furniture and work spaces out of exits, not to to prevent exits from being used for other circulation purposes than exiting. As I read the commentary, provided the door/stair/stairwell complies with all the requirements for exits, the door at the top of the stair could be an exit door, and I could measure the 75' travel distance from this door, and have a larger mezzanine.

How would you deal with this?

Thanks
Click to expand...
First off, the AHJ stating that it cannot be anything but an exit, if meaning it cannot be an entrance, is full of ..... and probably shouldn't be the ahj. Unless in this initial post you are not describing this adequately for us.

Now onto the rest.

Stair, you say is enclosed. Is this an exit enclosure, see the definition of this.

This door at the bottom of the stair.

1. does it go directly to the exterior?

2. does it discharge into a lobby?

3. does it discharge into an exit passageway

4. Is the opening through a firewall (I don't think a fire area / fire barrier.)

Otherwise, you have two distances to keep in mind here.

Common Path, you have already mentioned, of 75 feet. Is this mezzanine really an M space?

Could be 100 if B or an S

Exit Travel Distance of 200 or 250 feet, for M, depending upon sprinkler.

All of this assuming, safely, that you only need one exit.

Some had suggested an enclosure. But, if the bottom of the stair isn't discharging directly outdoors or through a fire wall (horzontal exit), then you would have to continue with a exit passageway.

Realize, for the door at the top of the stair to be an exit, the stair has to be a exit enclosure (fire barrier) and the door at the bottom has to either 1) exit to exterior, 2) exit into an exit passageway (corridor on steriods), 3) horizontal exit.

have a nice day.
 
Why can I not edit my posts?

Just to clarify the door a the bottom vs the top.

at the bottom, I would assume you exit into a corridor or space that give you multiple routes to exit.

At the top of the stair, if not an exit enclosure ...., would not actually be the exit, nor would it do anything with regards to the travel distances, etc. Just add another door.
 
The stair would have a fully compliant exit enclosure with the bottom door leading outside to the exit discharge connecting to the public right of way. The sense I get from your comments is that in this case I should be able to call the top door an exit door, therefore measure the 75' from there. That is what the Commentary seems to say.
 
Bottom door from the stair well exits to exterior to the exit discharge. The opening is through an exterior wall not required to be rated, but would be CMU anyway. The stair enclosure would be rated. Occupancy B, but no sprinklers, therefore 75' limit. Exit access distance well within 200'. Only one exit required from the mezzanine, because of occupant load and travel distance.

Thanks
 
Exit access distance well within 200'. Only one exit required from the mezzanine, because of occupant load and travel distance.
Click to expand...
1020 limits your maximum total travel distance to 75 ft to an exit

The stair would have a fully compliant exit enclosure with the bottom door leading outside to the exit discharge connecting to the public right of way. The sense I get from your comments is that in this case I should be able to call the top door an exit door, therefore measure the 75' from there
Click to expand...
That is correct just remember to measure the travel distance at right angles to the most remote point on that level
 
No Entrada es solamenta salida - Sounds just a stoopid in spanish,

the intent of that section is that it cannot be used as a janitors closet , office or any other use the building code only requirements for INGRESS is that they be accessible

Just tell the official that people will oly exit the space and never enter and make sure they assend the stais backwards.

File an appeal some people make us all look bad in the eyes of the public this is embarrasing
 
If you read Section 1020.1, you'll find that it never says that exits can only be used for exiting.

Here's the exact text from the 2009 IBC, Section 1020.1:

1020.1 General.

Exits

shall comply with Sections 1020 through 1026 and the applicable requirements of Sections 1003 through 1013. An

exit

shall not be used for any purpose

that interferes with its function as a

means of egress

. Once a given level of exit protection is achieved, such level of protection shall not be reduced until arrival at the

exit discharge

.



The underlined portion (which I added), only requires that the use of an exit cannot be used for a purpose that would prevent the exit from being used as a means of egress. This does not prohibit an exit from being used as a means of circulation from lower floors to upper floors.
 
These mezzanines are typically the accounting office and the risk management/eye in the sky loss prevention elements of the store.. not open to the public. One exit/entrance to the area is not prohibited by the code
 
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