Exit Discharge Question for 3-Story Apartment Project

[ETThompson]

Although... back to the elevator question: I had considered the exception that got us out of having an elevator to the roof deck as 1104.4, which exempts stories that are less than 3,000sf (which we meet). But the language in that section is confusing, with it's reference to "above and below" the entry level. If my roof deck is on level 03 and that story is under 3,000sf is that a valid exception?

 

[ETThompson]

Well as I say

See if it flys

Maybe have a conceptual set down with the building offical

And see if you get thumbs up or down!!!

Yeah, we typically have a review prior to the official review, once we complete the DD design (that's where we are now). However, the owner wants to submit an early set for permit, so we may just have to find out when we submit for review...

 

[cda]

Ok

Interesting

Let us know

 

[cda]

Just a point of order::

“””” First the original issue about the proximity of the doors out of the exit stairs at the ground floor: I get the possible conceptual objection (the two exit doors are too close if one is compromised), but what I see in the actual code language is: "Where two exits, exit access doorways, exit access stairways or ramps, or any combination thereof, are required from any portion of the exit access, the distance... (etc)" The exit access is the path leading to, not from, these stairs. The stairs themselves are the exits. And once you get out of them, you're in the exit discharge. Doesn't a reading of the actual language as above refer only to where you go in to the stairs?””””


So if the doors were next to each other on the ground floor,

You see no problem with that

 

[ETThompson]

Just a point of order::

“””” First the original issue about the proximity of the doors out of the exit stairs at the ground floor: I get the possible conceptual objection (the two exit doors are too close if one is compromised), but what I see in the actual code language is: "Where two exits, exit access doorways, exit access stairways or ramps, or any combination thereof, are required from any portion of the exit access, the distance... (etc)" The exit access is the path leading to, not from, these stairs. The stairs themselves are the exits. And once you get out of them, you're in the exit discharge. Doesn't a reading of the actual language as above refer only to where you go in to the stairs?””””


So if the doors were next to each other on the ground floor,

You see no problem with that

Well, I've never encountered a situation like this before, and I generally wouldn't do it, but I can't rule out this design based on that. This came about when we raised the floor to floor height, we are *extremely* tight on the site, and the other options presented other really problematic challenges. If I have to, I will, but I can't find anything in the code telling me I have to...though I could be wrong...

 

[cda]

Wonder if this applies


“” 1.4 “”




[paste:font size="5"]Exits shall discharge directly to the exterior of the building. The exit discharge shall be at grade or shall provide a direct path of egress travel to grade. The exit dischargeshall not reenter a building. The combined use of Exceptions 1 and 2 shall not exceed 50 percent of the number and minimum width or required capacity of the required exits.

Exceptions:

1. Not more than 50 percent of the number and minimum width or required capacity of interior exitstairways and ramps is permitted to egress through areas on the level of discharge provided all of the following conditions are met:

1.1. Discharge of interior exitstairways and ramps shall be provided with a free and unobstructed path of travel to an exterior exit door and such exit is readily visible and identifiable from the point of termination of the enclosure.

1.2. The entire area of the level of exit discharge is separated from areas below by construction conforming to the fire-resistance rating for the enclosure.

1.3. The egress path from the interior exit stairway and ramp on the level of exit discharge is protected throughout by an approved automatic sprinkler system. Portions of the level of exit discharge with access to the egress path shall be either equipped throughout with an automatic sprinkler system installed in accordance with Section 903.3.1.1or 903.3.1.2, or separated from the egress path in accordance with the requirements for the enclosure of interior exit stairways or ramps.

1.4. Where a required interior exitstairway or ramp and an exit access stairway or ramp serve the same floor level and terminate at the same level of exit discharge, the termination of the exit access stairway or ramp and the exit discharge door of the interior exitstairway or ramp shall be separated by a distance of not less than 30 feet (9144 mm) or not less than one-fourth the length of the maximum overall diagonal dimension of the building, whichever is less. The distance shall be measured in a straight line between the exit discharge door from the interior exit stairway or ramp and the last tread of the exit access stairway or termination of slope of the exit access ramp.

 

[ETThompson]

Wonder if this applies


“” 1.4 “”




[paste:font size="5"]Exits shall discharge directly to the exterior of the building. The exit discharge shall be at grade or shall provide a direct path of egress travel to grade. The exit dischargeshall not reenter a building. The combined use of Exceptions 1 and 2 shall not exceed 50 percent of the number and minimum width or required capacity of the required exits.

Exceptions:

1. Not more than 50 percent of the number and minimum width or required capacity of interior exitstairways and ramps is permitted to egress through areas on the level of discharge provided all of the following conditions are met:

1.1. Discharge of interior exitstairways and ramps shall be provided with a free and unobstructed path of travel to an exterior exit door and such exit is readily visible and identifiable from the point of termination of the enclosure.

1.2. The entire area of the level of exit discharge is separated from areas below by construction conforming to the fire-resistance rating for the enclosure.

1.3. The egress path from the interior exit stairway and ramp on the level of exit discharge is protected throughout by an approved automatic sprinkler system. Portions of the level of exit discharge with access to the egress path shall be either equipped throughout with an automatic sprinkler system installed in accordance with Section 903.3.1.1or 903.3.1.2, or separated from the egress path in accordance with the requirements for the enclosure of interior exit stairways or ramps.

1.4. Where a required interior exit stairway or ramp and an exit access stairway or ramp serve the same floor level and terminate at the same level of exit discharge, the termination of the exit access stairway or ramp and the exit discharge door of the interior exit stairway or ramp shall be separated by a distance of not less than 30 feet (9144 mm) or not less than one-fourth the length of the maximum overall diagonal dimension of the building, whichever is less. The distance shall be measured in a straight line between the exit discharge door from the interior exit stairway or ramp and the last tread of the exit access stairway or termination of slope of the exit access ramp.

I looked at that, and actually I think it helps me. I checked the commentary and this mentions that this (exception 1.4) is in the case where you have two separate types of exit stairs (Interior Exit Stairway and Exit Access Stairway) - the example in the commentary mentions a dedicated exit from a conference room in addition to the main building stair. But the commentary also mentions that high-rises have a minimum distance between where exit stairs come out (403.5.1). This would imply that this rule does *not* apply to non-high rise conditions such as mine.

 

[ETThompson]

The issue raised I'm most wondering about is the accessible route to the roof deck.

Here's the context: We have a small roof deck which is for the use of the tenants of the apartments (not the retail space). Per our code, we are not required to have Type A fully accessible units, only Type B (see post #20 above). As noted in post #20, we are only required to have them at the ground level units, and nothing in the code triggers an elevator for the apartment units above.

If the only units provided are Type B units, adaptable in the future but not designed for accessibility day one, would this mean the roof deck similarly would not be required to provide an accessible route on day one, but would need to be installed in the future if a wheelchair-bound tenant wanted to rent one of the Type B unit?

The second option is the exception I noted in post #25 above, referencing 1104.4 Exception 1. Here is the language: "1104.4 Multistory buildings and facilities. At least one accessible route shall connect each accessible story and mezzanine in multilevel buildings and facilities, Exception 1. An accessible route is not required to stories and mezzanines that have an aggregate area of not more than 3,000 square feet ( 278.7 m2)per story and are located above and below accessible levels. "

This wording is confusing, and the commentary does not really clarify things. If the 3rd story, where the roof deck is located, is less than 3,000sf, does this provide an option? (we're borderline 3,000, so may not work anyway).

Is it possible we could avoid an accessible route to this roof deck? Given our site limitations, I would think only an elevator or LULA would work to meet this, but either of those would be problematic both in terms of cost and available space...

 

[ETThompson]

Reviving this thread...

Actually, for the exit into the lobby, Section 1016.2 is not applicable since that section only applies to the exit access. I think what you're looking for is Section 1028.1, Exception 1.

As for your main question, I don't believe this will be a problem as long as it complies with Section 1028.3, which states that an exit discharge component must be "sufficiently open to the exterior so as to minimize the accumulation of smoke and toxic gases."

Regarding your second question, the answer is yes. Per the definition in Chapter 2, an egress court is a "court or yard which provides access to a public way for one or more exits." Since what you describe conforms to a yard as defined in Chapter 2, then it would be considered an egress court and must have the required wall and opening protection.

The building department is pushing back on the idea that these stairs at level 01 exit to the "exterior". Again, as I said in post #1, these doors exit level 01 to the exterior in the sense that where you come out is unconditioned, but the doors are underneath the breezeway balcony structure for about 10' and pretty bounded by walls and other building elements. The code does not define "exterior". See the sketched floor plan in my post #15 - if you look at the upper level 2/3, you can see where the breezeway balcony is over the place where the two stairs exit out on level 01. As you move to the right, you're out from under those and in a path (totally open to the sky, but bounded by the buidling on one side and a fence on the other) that leads to the public way.

I appreciate that 1028.3 supports my position, but it does not definitively say that it is considered exterior. The commentary doesn't seem to add anything either. I will try responding by using 1028.3, but is there any other information or interpretation that we could use to bolster our case?

Thanks