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Exiting a building through large courtyard

E

eyden

Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2016
Messages
31
Location
California
I have two large buildings connected by a larger, multi-level courtyard.
I'm attaching an image with labels, but in case it doesn't work, I'll try to describe it as well.
A portion of the larger building is A-2 occupancy. One of the required building exits (BE) of this section exits into the courtyard. From this level of the courtyard (A) I have two required accessible exit paths (P1 and P2). P2 is 115' from BE to Courtyard Exit 2 (CYE 2), while P1 is 315' from BE to Courtyard Exit 1 (CYE 1).

Questions:
1) Does the exit access travel distance extend from the most remote part inside the building all the way to the Courtyard Exits? Or can I restart the number once I reach the building exit?
2) Can the courtyard be an egress court? All Courtyard Exits lead to parking lots. Can the courtyard be an exit discharge?
3) The entire building is sprinklered, but courtyard isn't. (Does anyone do that?) I'm using the the 250' bonus for having sprinklers. Is that right, even when parts of the exit path aren't sprinklered because they're outside?
4) Similarly, the AHJ is asking for paths of travel from each level of the courtyard. Is that just 200'?

5) As I've been typing all this out, I thought of a possible solution. I have two sections of the building. One for general access and one for VIP access. There is a wall between them with two doors and one framed opening. As I have it now, each one requires 2 exits. One of the general access exits feeds into the VIP access (approved by the AHJ). Can I consider the two sections as just one large space requiring only two exits, provided the doors swing in opposite directions?

The project is in California.
This is driving me crazy. I'm pretty much grasping at straws trying to come up with any reason to avoid redesign.

http://imgur.com/a/Q1rYB
http://imgur.com/a/Q1rYB
xZni9Ap
 
I cannot tell by the drawing

Does the egress court have direct access to public way???


EGRESS COURT. A court or yard which provides access to a public way for one or more exits.
 
It's difficult to tell from the drawing. I don't know if those are maze-like walls or edges of ramps, walks, or other low-height site element. When the occupant leaves the building and is in open air, they are typically in the exit discharge and travel distance measurement stops. If the courty is used for assembly purposes, it will be required to provide the required number of means of egress points, but since it is outdoors and does not re-enter any building, travel distance measurement is not a requirement through or within the court.
 
cda said:
I cannot tell by the drawing

Does the egress court have direct access to public way???


EGRESS COURT. A court or yard which provides access to a public way for one or more exits.
Click to expand...
Sorry those are all walls with guard rails between levels of the courtyard. The beginning of P1 goes down a large ramp.

Every exit leads to a parking lot, which eventually leads to a street, but the project is setback from the street about 360'.
 
RLGA said:
It's difficult to tell from the drawing. I don't know if those are maze-like walls or edges of ramps, walks, or other low-height site element. When the occupant leaves the building and is in open air, they are typically in the exit discharge and travel distance measurement stops. If the courty is used for assembly purposes, it will be required to provide the required number of means of egress points, but since it is outdoors and does not re-enter any building, travel distance measurement is not a requirement through or within the court.
Click to expand...
They are all walls with 42" guardrails between the levels of the courtyard. The beginning of P1 goes down a large ramp.

The courtyard is for assembly purposes. Outdoor wine tasting and small concerts. I'm good with the three exits. Where does the code indicate that the travel distance measurement is not a requirement outside? Is that by calling it an egress court?
 
Once outside of a building your travel distance normally ends.



Not sure if this answers the outdoor question

But I am wondering if your outdoor is outdoor??

What is your occupant load for the concert area and total outdoor area???

It seems like this is surrounded by bldg 1&2 and maybe the walls of the concert stage


1004.5 Outdoor areas.
Yards, patios, courts and similar outdoor areas accessible to and usable by the building occupants shall be provided with means of egress as required by this chapter. The occupant load of such outdoor areas shall be assigned by the building official in accordance with the anticipated use. Where outdoor areas are to be used by persons in addition to the occupants of the building, and the path of egress travel from the outdoor areas passes through the building, means of egress requirements for the building shall be based on the sum of the occupant loads of the building plus the outdoor areas.

Exceptions:

  1. 1.Outdoor areas used exclusively for service of the building need only have one means of egress.

  2. 2.Both outdoor areas associated with Group R-3 and individual dwelling units of Group R-2.
 
I remember that exterior stairs have to have openings within 10 ft. of them be fire-rated. Is there a similar provision if the required exit width is within 10 ft. of the building walls?
 
cda said:
Once outside of a building your travel distance normally ends.



Not sure if this answers the outdoor question

But I am wondering if your outdoor is outdoor??

What is your occupant load for the concert area and total outdoor area???

It seems like this is surrounded by bldg 1&2 and maybe the walls of the concert stage


1004.5 Outdoor areas.
Yards, patios, courts and similar outdoor areas accessible to and usable by the building occupants shall be provided with means of egress as required by this chapter. The occupant load of such outdoor areas shall be assigned by the building official in accordance with the anticipated use. Where outdoor areas are to be used by persons in addition to the occupants of the building, and the path of egress travel from the outdoor areas passes through the building, means of egress requirements for the building shall be based on the sum of the occupant loads of the building plus the outdoor areas.

Exceptions:

  1. 1.Outdoor areas used exclusively for service of the building need only have one means of egress.

  2. 2.Both outdoor areas associated with Group R-3 and individual dwelling units of Group R-2.
Click to expand...
"Does this count as outside?" is exactly the question.
Looks like I miscalculated and it IS a bit over 1,000. So I'll have to put in another exit anyway.
The whole courtyard is surrounded by walls, with the small exception of the arcade around Building 2. There is no wall or gate closing that area off.

What part of that says egress distance stops though? I'm reading it as it saying I DO need to follow egress distance.
 
I agree with Ron, but......There is only one direct "exit" to a public way? For the buildings and the 1000 person courtyard? That is not going to fly...Unless the CY is large enough to have the "outdoor rally point" or whatever IBC calls it...

1027.5 Access to a public way. The exit discharge shall provide
a direct and unobstructed access to a public way.
Exception: Where access to a public way cannot be provided,
a safe dispersal area shall be provided where all of
the following are met:
1. The area shall be of a size to accommodate at least 5
square feet (0.46 m2) for each person.
2. The area shall be located on the same lot at least 50
feet (15 240 mm) away from the building requiring
egress.
3. The area shall be permanently maintained and identified
as a safe dispersal area.
4. The area shall be provided with a safe and unobstructed
path of travel from the building.
 
And this is for Paul....

1027.4.2 Construction and openings. Where an egress court
serving a building or portion thereof is less than 10 feet (3048
mm) in width, the egress court walls shall have not less than
1-hour fire-resistance-rated construction for a distance of 10
feet (3048 mm) above the floor of the court. Openings within
such walls shall be protected by opening protectives having a
fire protection rating of not less than 3/4 hour.
Exceptions:
1. Egress courts serving an occupant load of less than
10.
2. Egress courts serving Group R-3.
 
steveray said:
I agree with Ron, but......There is only one direct "exit" to a public way? For the buildings and the 1000 person courtyard? That is not going to fly...Unless the CY is large enough to have the "outdoor rally point" or whatever IBC calls it...

1027.5 Access to a public way. The exit discharge shall provide
a direct and unobstructed access to a public way.
Exception: Where access to a public way cannot be provided,
a safe dispersal area shall be provided where all of
the following are met:
1. The area shall be of a size to accommodate at least 5
square feet (0.46 m2) for each person.
2. The area shall be located on the same lot at least 50
feet (15 240 mm) away from the building requiring
egress.
3. The area shall be permanently maintained and identified
as a safe dispersal area.
4. The area shall be provided with a safe and unobstructed
path of travel from the building.
Click to expand...

Can the direct "exit" not be a door? The buildings have other exits out to the public way. No space in the building has its only exit out to the courtyard, so it will not be the entire occupancy of the building streaming through the courtyard.
The purple in the attached image is the 50' line. If I subtract the area of the planters and amphitheater, it can hold 1,108 people. But I'm not really sure how I'd permanently identify that.
 
I really appreciate all the help from everyone!
In my original post, I threw out another idea.

http://imgur.com/a/J99yW

I have two areas -- general wine tasting and VIP wine tasting -- that are separated by a wall. The wall has an opening, two latchless doors, and a large (~7' wide) two way fireplace. Is that enough wall opening to consider the two spaces as one single exiting area? Or does having the wall completely ruin that?
 
If you have more than 50 people in the CY then you need 2 exits....per 1004.5 from CDA...plus the people from the buildings that egress through...
 
steveray said:
If you have more than 50 people in the CY then you need 2 exits....per 1004.5 from CDA...plus the people from the buildings that egress through...
Click to expand...
I have 3 exits. Two are gates in the courtyard wall and one has no gate. I'm worried about travel distances to these exits though.
 
eyden said:
I have 3 exits. Two are gates in the courtyard wall and one has no gate. I'm worried about travel distances to these exits though.
Click to expand...


Do you want to diagram that and assign distances, than post


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