Fear of ADA lawsuit forces business to lock its doors

[JPohling]

Arghhhhhhhhhh over and over and over. Just design it correctly, construct it properly and inspect it per the written code. It really is not that difficult. The business was not accessible. Any successful business would make the necessary improvements to continue to be successful. A failing business will fold and blame ADA, not on their inability to be run a successful business.

 

[Mr. Inspector]

Don't know about other states but PA does not require comliance sith ADA or ADASAD. Only accessiblity according to the IBC when a permit is required.

 

[mtlogcabin]

Any successful business would make the necessary improvements to continue to be successful.

ADA improvements are not necessary for a business to be successful or continue to be successful as the hundreds of thousands of non fully compliant buildings across the US that have businesses operating out of them proof.

Now before you respond let me post something my wife wrote last night.

Pamper Day...tomorrow marks 3 months since I broke my foot and as silly as it sounds, I finally got to submerge my foot in water. As of last week, the incision finally sealed, so today, in it went, soaked in a hot tub! We take so much for granted, including showers, getting our food, getting in and out of bed, walking, dressing by ourselves, so many other things.... I have a great appreciation for the anxiety felt by those unable to do the simple things in life. Those who's lives are wheel chair bound, unable to tend to their daily needs, we so often take for granted. I appreciate the inventor of the wheelchair, the shower chair, the walker, the scooter, which allows me to get outdoors and sit in the sun while enjoying the cool breeze...so many things that have made life a bit easier. For now, I will treasure the ability to take a simple shower. One day at a time...

Do I have to help push the door open to the ladies room because the closer is out of adjustment? Yes. Do we have to make adjustments to get up a curb or step? Yes. Should she be able to sue and receive $4,000 because or "rights" where violated? No.

 

[MASSDRIVER]

Arghhhhhhhhhh over and over and over. Just design it correctly, construct it properly and inspect it per the written code. It really is not that difficult. The business was not accessible. Any successful business would make the necessary improvements to continue to be successful. A failing business will fold and blame ADA, not on their inability to be run a successful business.

Not true.

Brent.

 

[ADAguy]

Surely you jest? PA doesn't recognize a Federal law? Does DOJ Taskforce know this?

Existing businesses don't necessairly require permits to remove barriers.

 

[ADAguy]

Brent, what do you consider "not true" about his statement? Just his opinion.

 

[steveray]

Aren't there several states not recognizing federal laws for marijuana?....Just sayin....

Surely you jest? PA doesn't recognize a Federal law? Does DOJ Taskforce know this? Existing businesses don't necessairly require permits to remove barriers.

 

[mtlogcabin]

Surely you jest? PA doesn't recognize a Federal law?

Big difference between recognizing a Federal law and being responsible to enforce it.

Arizona tried to enforce Federal immigration law and the DOJ sued them.

Mt does not review to or enforce ADA Federal rules/law

24.301.902 DISCLAIMER (1) A building permit or certificate of occupancy issued by the state or a municipality or county must contain a statement that reads: "Compliance with the requirements of the state building code for physical accessibility to persons with disabilities does not necessarily guarantee compliance with the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990, the Rehabilitation Act of 1973, the Fair Housing Amendments Act of 1988, Title 49, chapter 2, commonly known as the Montana Human Rights Act or other similar federal, state or local laws that mandate accessibility to commercial construction or multifamily housing."

 

[JPohling]

Not true.Brent.

As long as you could hurdle the 6" step at the shop entry you may find the rest is accessible but clearly Perez Cabinets is not currently accessible.

 

[jar546]

ADA improvements are not necessary for a business to be successful or continue to be successful as the hundreds of thousands of non fully compliant buildings across the US that have businesses operating out of them proof.Now before you respond let me post something my wife wrote last night.

Pamper Day...tomorrow marks 3 months since I broke my foot and as silly as it sounds, I finally got to submerge my foot in water. As of last week, the incision finally sealed, so today, in it went, soaked in a hot tub! We take so much for granted, including showers, getting our food, getting in and out of bed, walking, dressing by ourselves, so many other things.... I have a great appreciation for the anxiety felt by those unable to do the simple things in life. Those who's lives are wheel chair bound, unable to tend to their daily needs, we so often take for granted. I appreciate the inventor of the wheelchair, the shower chair, the walker, the scooter, which allows me to get outdoors and sit in the sun while enjoying the cool breeze...so many things that have made life a bit easier. For now, I will treasure the ability to take a simple shower. One day at a time...

Do I have to help push the door open to the ladies room because the closer is out of adjustment? Yes. Do we have to make adjustments to get up a curb or step? Yes. Should she be able to sue and receive $4,000 because or "rights" where violated? No.

One of the issues was independence of the physically challenged individual. They should not have to rely on someone else for the most simple of things. Not every person has someone with them.

 

[jar546]

Don't know about other states but PA does not require comliance sith ADA or ADASAD. Only accessiblity according to the IBC when a permit is required.

No completely true and a misleading statement.

PA, like all other states does not enforce the ADA, that is a reactive law enforced by the DOJ with hope that there is compliance.

PA, however, did adopt the IBC and ANSI A117.1 which is enforced.

PA has an Accessibility Advisory Review Board that grants variances under State Law, i.e. the IBC and ANSI !117.1 HOWEVER, state variances granted under State Law does not relieve the owners and RDP's of their Federal Responsibilities under the ADA.

 

[conarb]

As long as you could hurdle the 6" step at the shop entry you may find the rest is accessible but clearly Perez Cabinets is not currently accessible.

Well maybe Mr. Perez will lose his business if he just goes to another cabinet shop, frankly I never go into a cabinet shop and I've bought many millions of dollars worth of cabinets in my life, nobody needs to go into a cabinet shop, cabinet makers bid off PDFs or CAD drawings today, in some instances they come to job sites and measure them up for cabinets, this is nothing but legalized extortion.

 

[Glenn]

Colorado is a home rule state. I don't know of any jurisdication that enforces ADA requirements. We enforce our adopted code that references ANSI A117.

When a government rule is made without a mechanism for enforcement...the lawyers become the enforcing body. Their motivation is certainly not "intent and purpose".

 

[JPohling]

Exactly. The public does not go to his facility. It is a working millwork shop. If he had disabled employees he would need to make arrangements, but other than that he is fine.

 

[steveray]

Exactly. The public does not go to his facility. It is a working millwork shop. If he had disabled employees he would need to make arrangements, but other than that he is fine.

Until he has a showroom.....Kinda like saying a church is exempt.....until they rent out their hall.....

 

[mark handler]

As I have continuously said, other than for licensed designers, build or enforce the accessibility standards adopted by the Authority having Jurisdiction, ie: state government.

This means, for most, IBC and ANSI 117.1.

If you do this there will be no problem with ADA/the Fed’s.

Licensed designers need to design to the most restrictive requirements.

This is not brain surgery.

 

[MASSDRIVER]

Brent, what do you consider "not true" about his statement? Just his opinion.

In context, I'm specifically replying to language. In a sense, I refer to it as "battle of language", the use of which sets an opinion, or tone.

If you say "the business is not accessible", you are implying that it is unusable by the handicapped. It may be fully usable and accessible, but may lack a feature or features that would bring it to full compliance.

It could be something inconsequential like a sign made to current standards or a mirror placed too high, or maybe something more serious like a turning radius that's slightly too small, or a toe clearance issue.

The handicapped may be fully able to access and use the facility, but legally it lacks a feature.

In that sense, it is accessible. So the proper description is "does not meet government mandated accessibility regulations." Not "inaccessible".

To tell a handicapped person that a business is inaccessible to them is not necessarily true. (Although if it truly has a barrier, then it could be described as inaccessible).

Thank you for asking the question.

Brent.

 

[ADAguy]

Thank you for the clarity and logic of your response.

For attorneys and "some" disabled however it comes down to "did you cross your eyes and dot all your "t's"? Is not the law the manipulation of semantics?

At what point have we gone beyond the Ten Commandents or Hammurabi's laws.

Does fairness have a definition and by who's dictionary?

To quote "you know who" can't we all get along?

 

[JPohling]

Brent, If the facility allowed a wheeler to enter and circulate but the transaction top was at 42" or the mirror was to high or the toilet paper only come out in individual sheets I would say it is not fully accessible. If there is a 6" step at the primary entrance I would say it is not accessible, or inaccessible.