Fire access road gate width

[Yikes]

California Fire Code 505.3.2.1 says that fire roads must be min. 20' unobstructed width except for security gates per 503.6.

Does that wording (see actual text below) actually allow for security gates in the opened position to have a width smaller than 20'?

We have a client with a project that was approved/built in 1996 with separate 12' wide sliding in-gate and a 12' wide sliding out-gate, separated by a landscape island and fountain. The rest of the roadway is 34' wide.

The owner recently got a permit from the city to delete the landscape island (the fountain was an ugly maintenance hassle), making each new gate almost 17' wide. But the gates are now swinging, and the gate builder also installed a center post section so the gates would be secure against the post in a closed position.

Now, when the gates are fully opened, there is a 17' wide in, and a 17' wide out, separated by an 8" steel post. The new fire inspector is now saying, no, you need a full 26' unobstructed width when the gates are opened.

Here's the actual text of the fire code:

503.2.1 Dimensions. Fire apparatus access roads shall have an unobstructed width of not less than 20 feet (6096 mm), exclusive of shoulders, except for approved security gates in accordance with Section 503.6, and an unobstructed vertical clearance of not less than 13 feet 6 inches (4115 mm).

503.6 Security gates. The installation of security gates across a fire apparatus access road shall be approved by the fire chief. Where security gates are installed, they shall have an approved means of emergency operation. The security gates and the emergency operation shall be maintained operational at all times. Electric gate operators, where provided, shall be listed in accordance with UL 325. Gates intended for automatic operation shall be designed, constructed and installed to comply with the requirements of ASTM F 2200.

 

[cda]

ire apparatus access roads shall have an unobstructed width of not less than 20 feet (6096 mm),

If there are no admendments or other

I would say 20 feet

Now is there an in side and an out side??

If so I could change my answer

 

[JBI]

The installation of security gates across a fire apparatus access road shall be approved by the fire chief.

The width of the gate would be determined/approved by the fire chief.

 

[mtlogcabin]

If the access through the gate is a straight shot for the truck then the FD requirement to have a 26 ft opening for a 20 ft road width is asinine. How do they get away with making this stuff up? The most he could require is a 20 ft opening to match the minimum road width requirement.

 

[cda]

sorry read fast

Yes I would allow this """" Now, when the gates are fully opened, there is a 17' wide in, and a 17' wide out"""""

as long as

1. The turning radius can be met by the fire truck

2. No fire trucks wider than 15 feet

Couple of things

Normally you want to be able to have two fire trucks pass each other on the road,

so with this gate set up poses no problem

Also, have to take into account a ladder truck setting up, with outriggers.

so with this gate set up poses no problem

 

[Yikes]

More background:

It was originally a 34' wide public roadway, then was vacated by the city in 1996. The street then became private. The street is lined with apartments, all owned by my client. The street needed to be secured in 1996 to prevent some potential criminal activity by outsiders.

When it was vacated, the city allowed the security gates to be installed as follows: a 12' wide "in" gate, a 10' wide center median (planting+fountain), and a 12' wide "out" gate; total width = 34 feet. The rest of the now-private street remains as it was prior to 1996, which is 34' wide roadway.

The client has now (under permit) eliminated the center median, but has put a single post section in its place. They have torn out the 12' gates and installed a ~17' wide swinging in-gate, an approx. 8" post, and a ~17' wide swinging out-gate. The 34' wide roadway remains in place on either side of the gates.

The fire inspector is objecting to the center post.

 

[cda]

Well if the fire trucks have been making it into the place with this """12' a 12' wide "in" gate, a 10' wide center median (planting+fountain), and a 12' wide "out" gate """

Unless they have been having problems getting in, or making turns, than wider gates should not be a problem.

Guess if it would work, give them one 20 foot and one 14, and to me you meet code.

I would stick to the 17/17 unless they can show it will be a problem.

Talking three feet.

Ask them if they have a set up where a median is invovled, and see what the specs on that is???

 

[cda]

so has the work already begun???

the gates are there?

If so why did it go so far without the fire department involved??

 

[steveray]

I'd go with MT....

 

[mtlogcabin]

the city allowed the security gates to be installed as follows:

The inspector must follow the original agreement from the city. He is getting a 5 ft wider opening than the original.

Or move the post over and give him a 20 ft gate and secure the rest of the roadway

D103.5 Fire apparatus access road gates.

Gates securing the fire apparatus access roads shall comply with all of the following criteria:

1. The minimum gate width shall be 20 feet (6096 mm).

2. Gates shall be of the swinging or sliding type.

3. Construction of gates shall be of materials that allow manual operation by one person.

4. Gate components shall be maintained in an operative condition at all times and replaced or repaired when defective.

5. Electric gates shall be equipped with a means of opening the gate by fire department personnel for emergency access. Emergency opening devices shall be approved by the fire code official.

6. Manual opening gates shall not be locked with a padlock or chain and padlock unless they are capable of being opened by means of forcible entry tools or when a key box containing the key(s) to the lock is installed at the gate location.

7. Locking device specifications shall be submitted for approval by the fire code official.

8. Electric gate operators, where provided, shall be listed in accordance with UL 325.

9. Gates intended for automatic operation shall be designed, constructed and installed to comply with the requirements of ASTM F 2200.

 

[cda]

Perris has an idea

ObstructionstoEmergencyVehicleAccess

Existing or proposed gates and barriers crossing fire apparatus access roadways must be shown on the plans. Information such as the location, type of gate (e.g., swinging, sliding), dimensions, and method of operation (manual, electric) must also be provided. Note or identify the following on the fire master plan:

A. Clear Width – Gated openings for egress and ingress of vehicles shall not be less than 13 feet clear width. The vertical clearance shall not be less than 13 feet 6 inches, including landscaping and/or trees. This reduction in width is applicable only to the area immediately adjacent to the guard house or gate. Roads leading up to and beyond the guard house or gate shall meet standard fire lane width requirements prescribed in Section 2.A.5 of this guideline. See Attachment 4.

http://www.cityofperris.org/city-hall/forms/building-forms/FireDeptAccessWaterGuideline08-07-14.pdf

 

[Yikes]

so has the work already begun???the gates are there?

If so why did it go so far without the fire department involved??

CDA, I hate to say it, but when it was submitted for the most recent plan check, the then- building official had just accepted a job in another jurisdiction and had given his notice. He was running out the clock on his last 2 weeks there. He approved the plans and issued permit with no corrections, and I suspect that he did not run them past the fire department to get their opinion.

Yes, the 17' swinging gates are already built.

 

[JBI]

And the big issue is the post in the middle. They went from 2 12' gates to 2 17' gates.

I still say the fire chief is the final authority per the Fire Code.

 

[cda]

And the big issue is the post in the middle. They went from 2 12' gates to 2 17' gates. I still say the fire chief is the final authority per the Fire Code.

Depends

Some cities the fire department has no say on any plans

 

[cda]

CDA, I hate to say it, but when it was submitted for the most recent plan check, the then- building official had just accepted a job in another jurisdiction and had given his notice. He was running out the clock on his last 2 weeks there. He approved the plans and issued permit with no corrections, and I suspect that he did not run them past the fire department to get their opinion.Yes, the 17' swinging gates are already built.

Well sounds like the city has to eat this one.

 

[cda]

this one allows 15 feet, when there is a median,,

http://fire.countyofventura.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=cfmoD0jFUjo%3d&tabid=58

 

[Msradell]

this one allows 15 feet, when there is a median,,http://fire.countyofventura.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=cfmoD0jFUjo%3d&tabid=58

That Looks like It Clarifies Things Quite a Bit! But I realize that document is from Ventura County I'm sure it represents what most other areas allow. Also as mentioned earlier the really was all right with 2-12' gates and now it's not with 2-17' gates? If a fire truck driver can't get a truck through a gate that wide needs to be doing something else! Actually they should be able to get them very easily through a 12' or even narrower gate without any problem.

 

[cda]

That Looks like It Clarifies Things Quite a Bit! But I realize that document is from Ventura County I'm sure it represents what most other areas allow. Also as mentioned earlier the really was all right with 2-12' gates and now it's not with 2-17' gates? If a fire truck driver can't get a truck through a gate that wide needs to be doing something else! Actually they should be able to get them very easily through a 12' or even narrower gate without any problem.

Yes and no

If there are turns directly before or after the gates, sometimes the decreased gate width does not allow the turn to be made.

 

[JBI]

cda, My last comment was based on the language of the Fire Code that states the Fire Chief shall approve the gates. Lacking a local amendment, that is the requirement.