• Welcome to the new and improved Building Code Forum. We appreciate you being here and hope that you are getting the information that you need concerning all codes of the building trades. This is a free forum to the public due to the generosity of the Sawhorses, Corporate Supporters and Supporters who have upgraded their accounts. If you would like to have improved access to the forum please upgrade to Sawhorse by first logging in then clicking here: Upgrades

Fire Marshals, Builders At Odds Over Bill To Require Sprinklers In New Homes

mark handler

SAWHORSE
Joined
Oct 25, 2009
Messages
11,695
Location
So. CA
Fire Marshals, Builders At Odds Over Bill To Require Sprinklers In New Homes

Disagree On Whether Measure Would Save Lives

By DANIELA ALTIMARI, altimari@courant.com The Hartford Courant

5:46 p.m. EST, March 3, 2011

HARTFORD Connecticut

A bill that would mandate sprinklers in all new homes won the praise of fire marshals but the disapproval of building officials at a public hearing Thursday.

Fire marshals from several communities who came to the state Capitol complex Thursday said the measure would save untold lives.

Officials with the Home Builders Association of Connecticut, however, told the legislature's public safety committee that the requirement would add significant costs without reducing the number of fire deaths.

New homes are already fairly fire-safe, said Bob Fusari Sr., past chairman and president of the home builders group. Most have fire-stopping materials, upgraded electrical systems, hard-wired smoke detectors, and better escape routes, he said.

Fatal fires, Fusari added, are far more likely to occur in homes built before 1985. "People are dying in the older homes yet we're putting sprinklers in new homes,'' he told the committee during a public hearing.

The International Residential Code, a comprehensive set of requirements for home building, has embraced the sprinkler mandate for all homes built after 2013.

Only two states, California and Pennsylvania, currently have a statewide mandate that all new residential homes come equipped with a sprinkler system. Connecticut requires sprinklers in nursing homes, schools and buildings taller than four stories, among other structures, but not in one- and two-family homes, as this bill would dictate.

The home building industry says it should be a matter of personal choice: Consumers who choose the expense of installing a sprinkler system should have the right to do so, but the state should not mandate it for all new construction. The association estimates sprinklers would add $10,000 to the cost of building a 2,400-square-foot home.

Fire safety advocates dismiss that argument, saying no one would leave proven lifesaving devices such as smoke detectors and seat belts to "personal choice." Cost is often used to fight improvements that wind up preventing countless deaths, but homeowners with sprinkler systems would benefit from certain financial incentives as well, such as reduced insurance premiums, they say.

Old Saybrook Fire Marshal Donn V. Dobson noted that few home builders flinch at the cost of adding granite to a kitchen, or any of the other bells and whistles that are often standard in new construction. And many of those same arguments about cost used against sprinklers were also raised in 1978, when battery-operated smoke detectors were first mandated in new construction, he said.

"Everybody said smoke detectors were going to break the bank,'' added Kevin J. Kowalski, Simsbury's fire marshal. "Sprinklers have been proven to save lives and they're not as costly as they say they are."
 
The first sentence kind of threw me - "...the disapproval of building officials" doesn't seem to be the right rerminology when describing NAHB.

More of the same old same old.
 
In 1999 CT reportidly had 25 household fire deaths. The arguements of "save untold lives" and "preventing countelss deaths" are silly and meant to evoke emotion rather than promote a real debate on the benefits of residential fire sprinklers.
 
Coug Dad said:
In 1999 CT reportidly had 25 household fire deaths. The arguements of "save untold lives" and "preventing countelss deaths" are silly and meant to evoke emotion rather than promote a real debate on the benefits of residential fire sprinklers.
AMEN brother!
 
Sprinkler installation costs are only a small part of the total cost in a residential system under the code requirements.

Check out what it would cost a rural home on a well water system to meet requirements.

I have to admit that I only do commercial projects now and have NOT kept up with all of the neuances of the code requirements for both the ICC and NFPA parts.
 
PYRguy said:
Sprinkler installation costs are only a small part of the total cost in a residential system under the code requirements.Check out what it would cost a rural home on a well water system to meet requirements.
On my current job sprinkler costs were running over $200,000 which amount to over $50 a square foot, to say nothing of having three 5,000 gallon storage tanks on the property. Actually the costs on a well were less than if I had been on municipal water where I would have had $153,000 more in meter charges. That $1.61 a square foot allegation is one of the fire sprinkler industry's bigger lies, maybe it does apply in lower class areas using illegal labor, but not in more educated affluent areas, and here in California sprinkler fitters must be union. Fortunately I was able to avoid the requirement through a legal argument, unfortunately the older plan checker who granted me the exemption told me in a meeting Thursday that he is retiring at the end of next month, in the future it will probably be necessary to actually litigate to get out of this onerous requirement.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
It may not be a total lie but rather a misrepresentation of a partial discussion of a section of the equation. :p :D

What was the cost of JUST the sprinkler heads and piping on that $200K job? No labor or other associated costs.
 
forensics said:
2,400 sq ft X $1.61 = 10,000.00 Hmmm Hansome Markup For The Builder....No Wait...He said BUILDING COST increase... WHEW! He was just LYING!!!!

SHEESH!
Anyone who believes that $1.61, a fictitous amount provided by the sprinkler industry, is accurate is either a fool, idiot or moron. Take your pick. A straight forward easy installation in our area is coming in at a minimum of $3.25 per square foot. It was actually a good thing that the sprinkler advocates low-balled their estimate. Now everyone(general public) is seeing them for what they are---tellers of false statements(there is a single four letter word but some might find offensive). Combine this with the way the fire service unions are abusing the taxpayers and it is easy to see why their "white hats" are looking a little smudged. It is always fun to sit back and watch the results of self-inflicted wounds.LOL.
 
"to say nothing of having three 5,000 gallon storage tanks on the property"

Why are you storing 15,000 gallons of water for a 13D? At worst case 360 galons would be most required. That would be 2 heads 18 gpm times 10 min.

NFPA 13D

6.1.2 Where stored water is used as the sole source of supply, The minimum quantity shall equal the water demand rate times 10 minutes unless permitted by 6.1.3

6.1.3 Where stored water is used as the sole source of supply, the minimum quantity shall be permitted to equal the two-sprinkler water demand rate times 7 minutes where dwelling units meet the following criteria:

(1) one story in height

(2) Less that 2,000 square feet in area

8.1.1.2

Sprinklers that are listed with a specific discharge criteria



8.1.1.2.2 The system shall provide at least the flow required to produce a minimum discharge density of 0.05 gpm/per square foot to the design sprinklers

8.1.4

Operating pressure

. The minimum operating pressure of any sprinkler shall be the higher of the minimum operating pressure specified by the listing or 7 psi.
 
HL Fireinspector:

I posted the backup to that requirement in another thread, here it is again:

Santa Clara County Fire Marshal said:
Lack of adequate fire protection water supply is the most frequent problem in areas where no recognized water purveyor is available. On-site water storage in large quantities requiring one or more standard hydrants pressurized by a fire pump can be quite expensive. A typical installation will require 1,500 gpm (gallons per minute) at 20 psi (pounds per square inch) for 2 hours of operation, which equates to 180,000 gallons in storage, unless your project can qualify for our Isolated/Rural exception. This will be in addition to water needed for domestic, industrial or irrigation purposes. See Standard CFMO-W2 for details (click Related Links below). You may also be required to provide fire sprinklers if your project proposes structures over 3,600 square feet, is located in the Wildland Urban Interface (WUI) or if sprinklers are required by the Building Code. To see which WUI zone your rural property is in visit our Wildland Urban Interface webpage (link below) where you can view the Santa Clara County Draft WUIFA map, available in both PDF and Google Earth formats.The Primary tank holds the water necessary for domestic, irrigation, or industrial use, in addition to your fire sprinkler water supply. The Secondary tank supplies water to the Wharf Hydrant for firefighting purposes. The double tank system was devised to avoid possible contamination of the domestic water supply from the tank of the fire engine, as required by the County Plumbing Code. We require the combination of domestic and fire sprinkler supply in one tank to provide a degree of reliability for the fire sprinkler system as people are most likely to ensure that fresh water is available for other necessary uses at all times. See Standards CFMO W1 & CFMO W5 for details by clicking on related link below.¹
It makes no difference what the 13D requirement says, it's how it's amended and enforced in the local jurisdictions.

PTR Guy said:
What was the cost of JUST the sprinkler heads and piping on that $200K job? No labor or other associated costs.
I have no idea, sprinklers are not even allowed to be sold to builders. ever look for a fire sprinkler in Home Depot? In California sprinklers must be installed by licensed and insured union fire sprinkler contractors, the union got that into the state contractors' board regulations as soon as it became obvious that California was going to adopt the requirement, they of course got it in on the basis that union-trained sprinkler fitters were necessary for the public safety.

¹ http://www.sccgov.org/portal/site/fmo/faq#null
 
My God ... Please tell me you are not that guillable

The actual cost per ft including the regular standard plumbing 3/4 meter is less than 2.00 psf and the systems are being installed every day in both small and large homes for the same price

The systems we have done on wells have also been less than 2.00 psf

FACT... 3.0 KFactor sprinkler heads require 7psi and the demand is 8GPM

Fact ...2 heads at 8gpm X 7 minutes (10min in larger homes) = 112 gallons (160 gallons) NOTE the water stored in the well caseing can be included

If you believe this bull then you are idiots...

FACT averge cost of 13D systems are less tahn 2.00 psf PERIOD

Con Arb I admit I know nothing about the Left Coast requirements but might I suggest you MOVE to a more sane area

Surely you know your experience is not the norm. BTW in most of the country having a union card makes a craftsman no more competent than a nonunion craftsman
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Forensics:

People wonder why Uncle Bob and others are dropping out of here, I wonder why I am coming back, I've posted real world numbers from my admittedly expensive area and they amount to $50 a foot, I've even posted the fire marshal's information requiring all the storage on a well, and the utility district's numbers for larger meters, yet you keep beating the same drum to sell sprinklers for the corrupt coalition.
 
I appoligize if you think I meant to beat you up

I admit that in your area the systems might be unreasonable but your circumstances are not representitive of the whole country

If the value vs cost equation does not work then you are right in your assumption that the systems are not for your area

I do not believe in sprinkler at any cost

If the cost vs benefit is not reasonable the local AHJ must either accept that he is imposing unreasonable requirements that are costing his community lives and property.

One of the central concepts in the passage of P2904 was the low cost and life safety only approach.
 
I was asking about the material cost to see if that was close to the Buck-sixty number.

The material and design cost for PexA systems including the concealed white heads is just under a dollar
 
Two CA state senators (from rural CA) have introduced SB 726 requesting that rural CA counties have until 2014 to institute the new sprinkler rules. I truly hope it passes. For those of us in rural locales we really need more time to get all the components necessary for installation and enforcement in place.

Sue, where the west still lives......but no C-16 contractors.........
 
mark handler said:
Only 100 mi away in Redding, CA.....or

Lodi, CA

Corning, CA

Chico, CA
Mark -

Redding is actually the closest at 150 miles, three hours (in good weather) and four treacherous mountain passes when it snows. ;-)

The additional cost of travel + lodging + meals = how much added to the cost of the sprinkler installation? :confused: This is why I support SB 726, three more years to get all of the details hashed out with the contractors, designers, etc.

Sue, where the west still lives.............:mrgreen:
 
mark handler said:
Sueyou drive to slow.....
Yeah, but after nearly going off the road and into a canyon a couple times, I learned to slow down. I've survived cancer, I decided I wanted to survive 299. Oh, and my cancer doc is in Redding so I've been down that road numerous times! :D

Sue, where the west still lives..........
 
Top