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Fire Pole opening

H

Hyrax4978

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Joined
Nov 28, 2016
Messages
238
Location
Hartford, CT
Looking to get some thoughts and or feedback on a fire pole for a small 2 story fire house.
Building will be non-separated but of course there will be some ratings such as the R use dorm area.
Second floor houses dorms and day room. Will want to meet the rating requirement for that use.
This fire chief wants a fire pole without any doors into the pole room / area. open at the top and open at the bottom for ease of use. I don't think that can happen.
712.1.9 item 4 states that the two story opening can not be open to a corridor of an R occupancy. which is basically what we would have. does providing a fire shutter at the opening into the R corridor make this issue go away if its tied into the fire alarm. this item 4 seems very definitive. It does not say "unless otherwise protected as required". Any thoughts?
 
Hyrax4978 said:
Building will be non-separated but of course there will be some ratings such as the R use dorm area.
Click to expand...
If the building is non-separated per 508.3, why do you have a rating at the dorm area?

Hyrax4978 said:
712.1.9 item 4 states that the two story opening can not be open to a corridor of an R occupancy.
Click to expand...
Funny you mention this provision, I read this in the last week and asked myself, “If a corridor is an enclosed exit access component, how can it be open to the two-story opening?”

Hyrax4978 said:
open to a corridor
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Is it really a corridor per 1020, meaning enclosed and with the necessary rating per Table 1020.2?

Hyrax4978 said:
This fire chief wants a fire pole without any doors into the pole room / area. open at the top and open at the bottom for ease of use. I don't think that can happen.
Click to expand...
Assuming the fire chief is representing the project owner, a lot of project owners may desire things that the code doesn’t allow. If it turns out to be the case that the “corridor” has to be enclosed, they will have to accept a design that complies with the code.

Hyrax4978 said:
does providing a fire shutter at the opening into the R corridor make this issue go away if its tied into the fire alarm
Click to expand...
My guess is that a fire shutter would not be permitted to replace a fire-rated door, once the fire shutter closes the occupants would not readily be able to egress through that opening. Instead maybe an automatic-closing door would be permitted.
 
walker.t said:
If the building is non-separated per 508.3, why do you have a rating at the dorm area?
Click to expand...

2018 IBC
420.1 General.
Occupancies in Groups I-1, R-1, R-2, R-3 and R-4 shall comply with the provisions of Sections 420.1 through 420.10 and other applicable provisions of this code.

420.2 Separation walls.
Walls separating dwelling units in the same building, walls separating sleeping units in the same building and walls separating dwelling or sleeping units from other occupancies contiguous to them in the same building shall be constructed as fire partitions in accordance with Section 708.

Exceptions:

1. Where sleeping units include private bathrooms, walls between bedrooms and the associated private bathrooms are not required to be constructed as fire partitions.

2. Where sleeping units are constructed as suites, walls between bedrooms within the sleeping unit and the walls between the bedrooms and associated living spaces are not required to be constructed as fire partitions.

3. In Group R-3 and R-4 facilities, walls within the dwelling units or sleeping units are not required to be constructed as fire partitions.

420.3 Horizontal separation.
Floor assemblies separating dwelling units in the same buildings, floor assemblies separating sleeping units in the same building and floor assemblies separating dwelling or sleeping units from other occupancies contiguous to them in the same building shall be constructed as horizontal assemblies in accordance with Section 711.

Exception: In Group R-3 and R-4 facilities, floor assemblies within the dwelling units or sleeping units are not required to be constructed as horizontal assemblies.
 
MT Cabin, I do not see those exemptions to 420.2 you list there. where were those pulled from. I checked both the base 2021 and the amendments

This is all I see....
420.2 Separation walls. Walls separating dwelling units in the
same building, walls separating sleeping units in the same
building and walls separating dwelling or sleeping units from
other occupancies contiguous to them in the same building
shall be constructed as fire partitions in accordance with
Section 708.


I see this as an R-3 occupancy.

Per table 1020.2 i see the corridor needing a 1 hour rating. As the corridor does connect the sleeping unit to the stairwell i see this section being required.

This fire pole is not part of the egress path, so i see no issue putting a fire shutter there to close the opening. the stairwell is the main path.

To me 712.1.9 #4 is just a bit unclear. I personally don't see why we can't have an opening that is protected if its not part of the egress path and tied into the fire alarm. I just am struggling that there isn't more text clarifying that opening protection can be provided.
 
I have been involved in one fire station. There was a pole. There was a door to access the pole. From the platform to the pole seemed too far. I mentioned that to the captain and he said that the pole is for looks only as they were not allowed to use it. Too many injuries but when school children come for a tour, the pole is a big hit.
 
Hyrax4978 said:
I do not see those exemptions to 420.2 you list there. where were those pulled from.
Click to expand...
They’re from the 2018 IBC. You don’t need them, actually, they are listed as “Exceptions” but they seem to be more clarifications. 420.2 talks about walls separating dwelling units and sleeping units, not the individual rooms in the units.

Hyrax4978 said:
Per table 1020.2 i see the corridor needing a 1 hour rating. As the corridor does connect the sleeping unit to the stairwell i see this section being required.
Click to expand...
I wasn’t challenging the use of a corridor, just wanted to confirm if you were using “corridor” in the sense as it is defined in the code.
 
good point about the safety. I didn't actually ask him if it was functional. LOL. Does see like a liability if someone fell down trying to use it but didn't grab it well. I actually say one that had a slide, and that made me think, hmm, much safer. but i should ask, maybe this is a lot of hogwash trying to make it work anyway.
 
Hyrax4978 said:
MT Cabin, I do not see those exemptions to 420.2 you list there. where were those pulled from. I checked both the base 2021 and the amendments

This is all I see....
420.2 Separation walls. Walls separating dwelling units in the
same building, walls separating sleeping units in the same
building and walls separating dwelling or sleeping units from
other occupancies contiguous to them in the same building
shall be constructed as fire partitions in accordance with
Section 708.


I see this as an R-3 occupancy.

Per table 1020.2 i see the corridor needing a 1 hour rating. As the corridor does connect the sleeping unit to the stairwell i see this section being required.

This fire pole is not part of the egress path, so i see no issue putting a fire shutter there to close the opening. the stairwell is the main path.

To me 712.1.9 #4 is just a bit unclear. I personally don't see why we can't have an opening that is protected if its not part of the egress path and tied into the fire alarm. I just am struggling that there isn't more text clarifying that opening protection can be provided.
Click to expand...
FWIW every fire station I have worked on has been mixed use B, R-2 and S-2
 
Hyrax4978 said:
This fire pole is not part of the egress path, so i see no issue putting a fire shutter there to close the opening. the stairwell is the main path.

To me 712.1.9 #4 is just a bit unclear. I personally don't see why we can't have an opening that is protected if its not part of the egress path and tied into the fire alarm. I just am struggling that there isn't more text clarifying that opening protection can be provided.
Click to expand...

How are you going to install a horizontal fire shutter (curtain) to protect an opening with a pole right in the center of the opening?
 
i was thinking a vertical fire shutter at the opening to the area with the pole/hole. this would separate the 2nd floor R use from the other areas.
 
I'm a little surprised by poles in a new firehouse since I believe NFPA has come out against them and OSHA doesn't want them. Also read insurance companies feel they are unnecessary risk. Good luck.
 
Good point, i have not looked at osha, quick chatgpt for osha and nfpa say they are permitted with training, maintenace and meeting certain criteria. Thant being said chatgpt has been wrong many times, so its worth a double check.
 
I sense no one has said fire poles are not permitted but Google fire pole injuries. Interesting, including article from Smithsonian. Clearly an acknowledged hazard, but an element holds onto them.
 
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