Fire rebuild to include 20% upgrades?

[Mr. Inspector]

What I meant was the code doesn't care how much you get done for the 20%, just how much you spend. So if you get one very expensive idem like an accessible gold flush handle, platinum accessible sign, silver grab bar, or an accessible stain glass door it might be enough to reach the 20% without doing a lot of work.

 

[mark handler]

What I meant was the code doesn't care how much you get done for the 20%, just how much you spend. So if you get one very expensive idem like an accessible gold flush handle, platinum accessible sign, silver grab bar, or an accessible stain glass door it might be enough to reach the 20% without doing a lot of work.

It does care
And it cares that you get the maximum access from your buck.

You could assume that, the priorities for "upgrades" are given to those elements that will provide the greatest access in the following order:

​

• An accessible entrance;
• An accessible route to the altered area;
• At least one accessible restroom for each sex or one accessible unisex (single-user or family) restroom;
• Accessible telephones;
• Accessible drinking fountains; and
• When possible, additional accessible elements such as parking, signs, storage and alarms.

The total could be spent on fixing the entrance.​

 

[conarb]

It does care
And it cares that you get the maximum access from your buck.

Who determines that? I certainly hope it's not some government employee with prejudicial agenda. Just think what could happen if a disability activist got a job as a CBO.

 

[Mr. Inspector]

You could spend the 20% on just a foundation for an accessible elevator or part of an accessible ramp and stop there. The code just cares how much is spent, it doesn't need to be finished.

 

[mark handler]

You could spend the 20% on just a foundation for an accessible elevator or part of an accessible ramp and stop there. The code just cares how much is spent, it doesn't need to be finished.

I disagree
An unfinished project provides zero access, which is the intent of the code and the law.
As stated in previous posts, the money needs to be spent on items that give you the most access.
A foundation to an unfinished portion give no access.

 

[mp25]

A foundation to an unfinished portion give no access.

not now... but during the next renovation, the 20% at that time might finish the job.

I have struggled with the interpretation of this rule as well. Given that there is a continual obligation to remove barriers, it seems like if you can incoporate as many of them during a renovation, exceeding the 20%, the less of a potential hassle you set yourself up for.

 

[mark handler]

not now... but during the next renovation, the 20% at that time might finish the job.

I have struggled with the interpretation of this rule as well. Given that there is a continual obligation to remove barriers, it seems like if you can incoporate as many of them during a renovation, exceeding the 20%, the less of a potential hassle you set yourself up for.

All new work Shall, meet the accessibility codes
The 20 percent is in addition.

 

[conarb]

I disagree
An unfinished project provides zero access, which is the intent of the code and the law.
As stated in previous posts, the money needs to be spent on items that give you the most access.
A foundation to an unfinished portion give no access.

Maybe you should provide some code citations, there have to be some court cases on this issue that I can look up, opinions are worthless.

 

[mp25]

Mark, i think you missed the intent of my post.

I was responding to your "A foundation to an unfinished portion give no access."
It might not provide access now, but during a subsequent renovation, when you spend another 20%, it might be enough $$$ to make it accessible.

if the disproportionate limit kicks in at 20%, and the 20% does not get the job done, you do not have to spend over that 20% to get it finished.

 

[ADAguy]

mp25, at issue here is your interp of the code vs the owner's ongoing "Legal obligation" to comply with the ADA.
It appears that he has not previously met that "legal obligation" which is separate from code compliance. Unless he wishes to pursue a small business hardship exemption and open his books (I think not), as Mark says he must then 100% comply if his cost exceeds the threshold. It is a risk he and/or the AHJ choses to take or not.

 

[Paul Sweet]

I don't see where the AHJ would have liability. They can only enforce the code as adopted in their jurisdiction, not the ADASAD.

 

[Mr. Inspector]

You could spend the 20% on just a foundation for an accessible elevator or part of an accessible ramp and stop there. The code just cares how much is spent, it doesn't need to be finished.

This is what they are teaching in the accessible classes in PA and they are very strict about accessibility in PA and send auditors to finished jobs to check how the inspector inspected accessibility. A inspector can get reported and even loose their certification if they screw it up.

 

[ADAguy]

Love it! I want to be an audit inspector, first time I've heard of these.
PA may have a good idea, how long have they been auditing?

 

[Mr. Inspector]

Love it! I want to be an audit inspector, first time I've heard of these.
PA may have a good idea, how long have they been auditing?

Ever since the state started requiring inspections, I think 2007. Problem is they come up to 3 years after a building had a CO and write you up for things that were or not were there when you do your inspection. Then the state sends audit report to the local town about your mistakes which makes it sound that you don't know what your doing.

I got written up for a mirror that was too high where there was no mirror when I did the final, so now I tell the contractor that they have to put a mirror up.
Also a parking sign that was knocked down by a snow plow the year before, and grab bars that were taken down when they tiled the restroom.
The door closing speed was too fast 2 years after I checked it.
Exit signs that were taken down because of painting 2 two after I Inspected them.

 

[JCraver]

Ever since the state started requiring inspections, I think 2007. Problem is they come up to 3 years after a building had a CO and write you up for things that were or not were there when you do your inspection. Then the state sends audit report to the local town about your mistakes which makes it sound that you don't know what your doing.

I got written up for a mirror that was too high where there was no mirror when I did the final, so now I tell the contractor that they have to put a mirror up.
Also a parking sign that was knocked down by a snow plow the year before, and grab bars that were taken down when they tiled the restroom.
The door closing speed was too fast 2 years after I checked it.
Exit signs that were taken down because of painting 2 two after I Inspected them.

That whole second paragraph ^^^? That's what wrong with the accessibility codes.

 

[JCraver]

Ever since the state started requiring inspections, I think 2007. Problem is they come up to 3 years after a building had a CO and write you up for things that were or not were there when you do your inspection. Then the state sends audit report to the local town about your mistakes which makes it sound that you don't know what your doing.

I got written up for a mirror that was too high where there was no mirror when I did the final, so now I tell the contractor that they have to put a mirror up.
Also a parking sign that was knocked down by a snow plow the year before, and grab bars that were taken down when they tiled the restroom.
The door closing speed was too fast 2 years after I checked it.
Exit signs that were taken down because of painting 2 two after I Inspected them.

And who in the heck in PA agreed to such nonsense? Is this a state law they passed that requires these audits, or some state agency rules they made up on their own?

There's not a lot that's good about Illinois. But one thing I'll give us is that "they've" successfully fought off attempts to adopt a statewide building code for a long, long time. I'm not looking forward to when that changes.

* We do have a state accessibility code that I'm required to enforce. And I do. But I'd be supremely ticked if a state auditor showed up in town 3 years later and started going over jobs I barely remember doing.

 

[conarb]

That whole second paragraph ^^^? That's what wrong with the accessibility codes.

Now you are getting a taste of what we contractors have been facing, our insurance companies refuse to insure us for ADA work because some blackmailer can come back years later and sue us, I get around it by having an architect design everything and list me as additionally insured on his E&O policy, that way if I get sued I can pass it back on the architect, and people wonder why it is so expensive to do ADA work.

 

[ADAguy]

The duty to maintain after c of o is the users duty, not the GC's. Why do you let them get away with their comments, isn't there an appeal process?

 

[mp25]

There's not a lot that's good about Illinois. But one thing I'll give us is that "they've" successfully fought off attempts to adopt a statewide building code for a long, long time. I'm not looking forward to when that changes.

I would like to hear your reasoning behind not wanting a statewide code.
I would think that after the initial "shock" things would get a bit easier for both designers and inspectors.

 

[conarb]

The duty to maintain after c of o is the users duty, not the GC's. Why do you let them get away with their comments, isn't there an appeal process?

ADAguy:

There is a saying in the law, "On a clear day you can sue forever." It's the filing of the lawsuits that are the problem, in over 90% of ADA cases defended the defendant wins, the problem is the cost of defense, were I sued by a guy in a wheelchair 10 years after I remodeled the building I would turn it over to my insurance company for a defense and I would undoubtedly win; however, insurance companies take the cheapest way out and settle for whatever they can (which is what the blackmailer wants). If I were sued by the same guy and I am listed as additionally insured on the architect's policy when I turn the suit over to my insurance company, they immediately turn it over to the architect's insurance company for defense and indemnification, then the architect's insurance company takes the cheapest way out and settles with the blackmailer, I have nothing on my record to drive my rates up, the architect does though.

 

[JCraver]

I would like to hear your reasoning behind not wanting a statewide code.
I would think that after the initial "shock" things would get a bit easier for both designers and inspectors.

For my case especially here in IL - because I don't want Springfield or Chicago to have anything to do with our codes. Because they will both have their hands in it, and they both have long, unblemished records of screwing up everything they touch.

 

[conarb]

For my case especially here in IL - because I don't want Springfield or Chicago to have anything to do with our codes. Because they will both have their hands in it, and they both have long, unblemished records of screwing up everything they touch.

You're right, Chicago has a long history of corruption, notably the Daly machine. Remember back in our sprinkler debates, the main argument for sprinklers was new "lightweight" construction, the City of Elmhurst allowed for the elimination of sprinklers if the home was conventionally framed, if an applicant used lightweight roof trusses and/or I Joists they had to sprinkle, if they used conventional framing they didn't. That makes sense, in California many of our problems started with the statewide code in 1998.

 

[SCBO1]

Ever since the state started requiring inspections, I think 2007. Problem is they come up to 3 years after a building had a CO and write you up for things that were or not were there when you do your inspection. Then the state sends audit report to the local town about your mistakes which makes it sound that you don't know what your doing.

I got written up for a mirror that was too high where there was no mirror when I did the final, so now I tell the contractor that they have to put a mirror up.
Also a parking sign that was knocked down by a snow plow the year before, and grab bars that were taken down when they tiled the restroom.
The door closing speed was too fast 2 years after I checked it.
Exit signs that were taken down because of painting 2 two after I Inspected them.

Sound like your working for federal government, how much to they pay you to enforce ADA compliance.

 

[Mr. Inspector]

Sound like your working for federal government, how much to they pay you to enforce ADA compliance.

I don't enforce ADA, just IBC.