• Welcome to The Building Code Forum

    Your premier resource for building code knowledge.

    This forum remains free to the public thanks to the generous support of our Sawhorse Members and Corporate Sponsors. Their contributions help keep this community thriving and accessible.

    Want enhanced access to expert discussions and exclusive features? Learn more about the benefits here.

    Ready to upgrade? Log in and upgrade now.

Fire Stations and ADA

So a citizen will never come to the station to get a report, be interviewed in connection with an incident, the town fathers, mayor, congressman will never visit the station, he will never hire a administrative assistant, have his mother visit or have a fire prevention week open house with the public visiting the station.

All or any that any that may need accessibility accommodations, remember it is not just wheelchair bound people, people with walkers, canes, people with problems grasping, things in their hands.

Even able body persons enjoy the conveyance of accessibility accommodations.
 
TheCommish said:
So a citizen will never come to the station to get a report, be interviewed in connection with an incident, the town fathers, mayor, congressman will never visit the station, he will never hire a administrative assistant, have his mother visit or have a fire prevention week open house with the public visiting the station. All or any that any that may need accessibility accommodations, remember it is not just wheelchair bound people, people with walkers, canes, people with problems grasping, things in their hands.

Even able body persons enjoy the conveyance of accessibility accommodations.
Click to expand...
That includes disabled firefighters
 
From the OP it is the shower the FC states will not be used by the public. I guess there has never been a fire fighter come back from a call with a twisted knee, sprained ankle or strained back or maybe just overly exhausted that may need or want a rail to hang onto so the don't slip or fall while getting cleaned up before seeking treatment
 
mtlogcabin said:
From the OP it is the shower the FC states will not be used by the public. I guess there has never been a fire fighter come back from a call with a twisted knee, sprained ankle or strained back or maybe just overly exhausted that may need or want a rail to hang onto so the don't slip or fall while getting cleaned up before seeking treatment
Click to expand...
I think the OP said only able bodied would be permitted in the building...I guess those you mentioned would have to sit outside until they get better. j/k
 
What about the temporarily impaired, I broke my ankle bad 5 years ago and could not walk for an entire year. Even after I started physical therapy it was difficult to get around well.
 
Continuing on..

From the 2010 Guidance on the 2010 (ADA) Standards:

§ 35.151(d) Scope of coverage

In the NPRM, the Department proposed a new provision, Sec. 35.151(d), to clarify that the

requirements established by Sec. 35.151, including those contained in the 2004 ADAAG,

prescribe what is necessary to ensure that buildings and facilities, including fixed or

built-in elements in new or altered facilities, are accessible to individuals with disabilities.

Once the construction or alteration of a facility has been completed, all other aspects of

programs, services, and activities conducted in that facility are subject to the operational

requirements established in this final rule. Although the Department may use the

requirements of the 2010 Standards as a guide to determining when and how to make

equipment and furnishings accessible, those determinations fall within the discretionary

authority of the Department.

The Department also wishes to clarify that the advisory notes, appendix notes, and

figures that accompany the 1991 and 2010 Standards do not establish separately

enforceable requirements unless specifically stated otherwise in the text of the standards.

This clarification has been made to address concerns expressed by ANPRM commenters

who mistakenly believed that the advisory notes in the 2004 ADAAG established

requirements beyond those established in the text of the guidelines (e.g., Advisory

504.4 suggests, but does not require, that covered entities provide visual contrast on

stair tread nosing to make them more visible to individuals with low vision). The

Department received no significant comments on this section and it is unchanged in

the final rule.

Definitions of residential facilities and transient lodging. The 2010 Standards add

a definition of “residential dwelling unit” and modify the current definition of “transient

lodging.” Under section 106.5 of the 2010 Standards, “residential dwelling unit” is

defined as “[a] unit intended to be used as a residence, that is primarily long-term

in nature” and does not include transient lodging, inpatient medical care, licensed

long-term care, and detention or correctional facilities. Additionally, Section 106.5

of the 2010 Standards changes the definition of “transient lodging” to a building or facility

“containing one or more guest room(s) for sleeping that provides accommodations that

are primarily short-term in nature.” “Transient lodging” does not include residential dwelling

units intended to be used as a residence. The references to “dwelling units” and “dormitories”

that are in the definition of the 1991 Standards are omitted from the 2010 Standards.

The comments about the application of transient lodging or residential standards to social

service center establishments, and housing at a place of education are addressed separately

below. The Department received one additional comment on this issue from an

organization representing emergency response personnel seeking an exemption from the

transient lodging accessibility requirements for crew quarters and common use areas serving

those crew quarters (e.g., locker rooms, exercise rooms, day room) that are used exclusively

by on-duty emergency response personnel and that are not used for any public purpose.

The commenter argued that since emergency response personnel must meet certain physical

qualifications that have the effect of exempting persons with mobility disabilities, there is

no need to build crew quarters and common use areas serving those crew quarters to meet

the 2004 ADAAG. In addition, the commenter argued that applying the transient lodging

standards would impose significant costs and create living space that is less usable for

most emergency response personnel.

The ADA does not exempt spaces because of a belief or policy that excludes persons with

disabilities from certain work. However, the Department believes that crew quarters that

are used exclusively as a residence by emergency response personnel and the kitchens

and bathrooms exclusively serving those quarters are more like residential dwelling units

and are therefore covered by the residential dwelling standards in the 2010 Standards,

not the transient lodging standards. The residential dwelling standards address most of

the concerns of the commenter. For example, the commenter was concerned that sinks in

kitchens and lavatories in bathrooms that are accessible under the transient lodging

standards would be too low to be comfortably used by emergency response personnel.

The residential dwelling standards allow such features to be adaptable so that they would

not have to be lowered until accessibility was needed. Similarly, grab bars and shower

seats would not have to be installed at the time of construction provided that

reinforcement has been installed in walls and located so as to permit their installation

at a later date.

DISCLAIMER: I am not familiar enough with the ADA Design Standards to be able to

determine what is actually required in this application. I am still learning!

The comments and information posted so far have been extremely helpful, so

"Thanks ya'll" ! :)

That said, it is my understanding that there is an exemption for Fire Stations.

Refer to the Brady Fire Service Law. Also, the verbage above seems to grant an

exemption to these type facilities. The classification for the Fire Station Residential

areas seem to be an R-3.

Now what say ye?

NOTE: The guests and lurkers are encouraged to engage in to this discussion, as

well as, any of the other topics on here. Besides, ya'll may know something that

will clarify the topic for others.

.
 
 
Last edited by a moderator:
13R systems are for Residential Strucutures, hence the 'R'. It was not intneded for use in Commercial strucutres dedicated primarily to ohter uses such as 'S' / 'A' / 'B' which are the uses normally found in Fire Stations. If that were not he case, why would even have a standard other than NFPA13?
 
Globe Trekker - Why would it not be more like dormitory???? Dormitories are specifically listed as an R-2
 
Big Mac said:
13R systems are for Residential Strucutures, hence the 'R'. It was not intneded for use in Commercial strucutres dedicated primarily to ohter uses such as 'S' / 'A' / 'B' which are the uses normally found in Fire Stations. If that were not he case, why would even have a standard other than NFPA13?
Click to expand...
Office Area (B)

Apparatus Bays (S)or (B)

Sleeping Area (R-2)

Day Room (A-3) or (B)

Training Room (A-3)or (B)

NFPA13
 
mark handler said:
I say contact the DOJ. Seeing some of the comments from many on this board, makes me question their Knowledge

Here is 20 pages of SETTLEMENT AGREEMENTs between cities and the DOJ regarding access to Fire stations

http://searchjustice.usdoj.gov/search?q=%22fire+station%22&btnG=Search+ADA+Website&q=site%3Awww.ada.gov&sort=date%3AD%3AL%3Ad1&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=iso-8859-1&oe=UTF-8&client=default_frontend&proxystylesheet=default_frontend&site=default_collection&ip=71.189.92.234%2C10.4.254.29%2C10.14.4.33&access=p&entqr=0&entqrm=0&ud=1&start=0
Click to expand...
As you and many others on this board have helped me to recognize, there are limits to my knowledge, and in some cases it is best to seek guidance from the access-board and/or DOJ. That being said, I do not enforce the ADA, but rather the accessibility standards my jurisdiction has adopted. I have not been told this, however, I assume, yet make no certain claim, that we have adopted certain codes and standards to help ensure that those facilities within our jurisdiction will also be compliant with the ADA and avoid a lawsuit. Furthermore, the fire stations that fall within our jurisdiction receive no exemption from Chapter 11 IBC compliance for accessibility.
 
Well I certainly butchered one of the two most recent posts. Let me try and clean that up a bit.

13R systems are intended for use in Residential Strucutures, hence the 'R'. It was not intended for use in Commercial Structures dedicated primarily to uses other than 'Use Group R', such as 'S' / 'A' / and 'B' which are normally found in Fire Stations. If that were not the case, why would they even have a standard other than NFPA13R?

While I'm at it, I will reiterate that the placement and use of these sleeping rooms look far more like a dormitory setting than a single family residence.

Dang, I miss spell check. Of course I could use grammer check as well. My fingers get ahead of my brain far too often, and my fingers are pretty slow.
 
Big Mac said:
13R systems are for Residential Strucutures, hence the 'R'. It was not intneded for use in Commercial strucutres dedicated primarily to ohter uses such as 'S' / 'A' / 'B' which are the uses normally found in Fire Stations. If that were not he case, why would even have a standard other than NFPA13?
Click to expand...
Because sometimes the commercial uses of a building or structure require or benefit from a higher level of protection - 13R protects occupants who may be sleeping. 13 also protects structures, occupants who may be restrained, can be used in lieu of one hour fire protection, allows for additional square footage with a given construction type, etc. In a fire station, the purpose of the sprinkler system is to allow sleeping occupants time to escape.

The differential hazard levels between occupancies are addressed by fire separation or using the most restrictive construction requirements when occupancies are unseparated.
 
mtlogcabin said:
From the OP it is the shower the FC states will not be used by the public. I guess there has never been a fire fighter come back from a call with a twisted knee, sprained ankle or strained back or maybe just overly exhausted that may need or want a rail to hang onto so the don't slip or fall while getting cleaned up before seeking treatment
Click to expand...
Presumably the chief fires disabled personnel.
 
I have to claim lack of knowledge on all of this! I was hoping that some of the experienced

persons from the Fire Community (on here) would chime in to assist in the discussion.

In looking at the descriptions for the different Occupancy Groups (in the 2006 IBC), I

would interpret these fire stations to be an R-2. I am also curious as to what others

(specifically from the Fire Community) would interpret these fire stations as.

Coug Dad, ..FMWB, ..fireguy, ..cda, ..permitguy, others! :surr

.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Unfortunately, most of the fire service people I have come in contact with, say it is such and such because I said so, or you need to do that because I said so. Very seldom do they let the code get in the way. Unfortunate but true. We are trying to change that perspective, but it's a constant battle. On ewould think they would want to lead by example.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that is true of all fire service personnel, just the ones I come in contact with most often.
 
^^^^^ (see above) Just the way it should be done.

Please refer to the facilities as "accessible" instead of "handicapp".
 
globe trekker said:
I have to claim lack of knowledge on all of this! I was hoping that some of the experiencedpersons from the Fire Community (on here) would chime in to assist in the discussion.

In looking at the descriptions for the different Occupancy Groups (in the 2006 IBC), I

would interpret these fire stations to be an R-2. I am also curious as to what others

(specifically from the Fire Community) would interpret these fire stations as.

Coug Dad, ..FMWB, ..fireguy, ..cda, ..permitguy, others! :surr

.
Click to expand...
Our fire house was used for first aid classes, and Hunter's Ed classes. We had people stopping by for social visits. Girl Scouts stopped to sell cookies. Our kids stopped by so the girls could show us how pretty they were before the Prom. We also took the opportunity to glare at the boyfriend. We lived in the station for 24 hours at a time, it was our home away from home.

Trying to circumvent the building code sets a bad example. If I knew local officials were trying to get around the codes, they would loose credibility with me. Oh wait, they already do that.
 
hlfireinspector,

Are you stating that the fire stations ARE designated as an R-3

occupancy group?

(Sorry Mark, I couldn't resist the opportunity to clarify this

topic some more! :oops: )

As an aside, ..ya'll wanted a Hot Topic, well this tater' seems to be

pretty hot!

.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top