Firefighter's Right to Know

[Frank]

Even if you put in the code a requirement to post the construction type of the house--what are the odds of the current owner knowing what is in the floors or what a plate connected truss is when they are standing in the attic looking at them?

Around here plate connected roof trusses have been common for 50 years and I joists for 25-30 years. For commercial buildngs it is bar joists for even longer.

If it is not lightweight construction it is likely baloon framing with its issues--I have noted that these proposals have not listed the need to post for baloon framing where 2nd line quickly goes to the attic to cut off the fire there. As firefighters we have to assume light weight unprotected construction for all low rise buildings.

That said-- falling trees typically kill 1-2 firefighters per year and 5-10 are killed related to trama at structural fires including building failures, falls loose hoses etc. The falling tree trama deaths are on the same order of magnitude as firefighter trama deaths from building structural failures including light weight construction premature failures.

 

[gbhammer]

The Fire Marshals Association in our area pushed for identification stickers to be placed on the electric meter of all residential structures at the time of occupancy inspections. The sticker has symbols that identify to the fire fighters what type of construction is located in each area of the home. Our Fire Marshals Association has a membership that includes many of the counties building officials and we have bi-weekly code training sessions with many of the inspectors and representatives of all the different AHJs. We all have trained on the hazards of light weight construction. Knowledge and forewarning is how you save lives.

 

[Mac]

NY State has had a truss sign law for a few years now. It applies to non residential buildings, using "metal plate connected trusses" or other "engineered products".

Whats the big deal?

 

[gbhammer]

NY State has had a truss sign law for a few years now. It applies to non residential buildings, using "metal plate connected trusses" or other "engineered products".Whats the big deal?

It doesn't have to be a big deal. There was no ordinance passed for the requirement of a sticker. Each fire district pitched in a little money and the stickers were made in bulk. Each fire marshal then places the sticker on the electric meter when inspections come up. Simple cost effective and smart.

 

[alora]

Has everyone seen appendix J in 2012 fire codes?

So, why a Maltese cross and not a Florian cross?

 

[conarb]

NIOSH was supposed to give us a national standard, but we still have a mess, not only do firefighters have a right to know, but the public also has a right to know. BTW, homes I built in the 50s with lightweight trusses with plywood gussets are doing fine, the industry went to gang-nail plates in the 60s and I've had to rebuild several of those roofs because of sagging, the gang-nail plates coming out, Elmhurst Illinois has the right idea, for truss roofs require plywood gussets be nailed over the metal plates, if I joists are used require sprinklers.

 

[brudgers]

The Fire Marshals Association in our area pushed for identification stickers to be placed on the electric meter of all residential structures at the time of occupancy inspections. The sticker has symbols that identify to the fire fighters what type of construction is located in each area of the home. Our Fire Marshals Association has a membership that includes many of the counties building officials and we have bi-weekly code training sessions with many of the inspectors and representatives of all the different AHJs. We all have trained on the hazards of light weight construction. Knowledge and forewarning is how you save lives.

I have to admit that putting a sticker on the electrical meter is the most utterly sensible thing I have ever seen posted on this board. Which explains why the scarlet letter crowd is so vocal.

 

[High Desert]

I would assume that any building on fire is very, very dangerous. Why would you need signs to differentiate between the levels of danger?

 

[Inspector 102]

As the building official and safety officer on our local department, I am aware of the changes in construction material and put on at least one class per year to update my crews. As stated before, if a life is a stake, an effort will be made to rescue. Risk alot to save alot, risk a little to save a little. The use of lightweight material definitely has it's place in the trade and contractors that are truely concerned with safety can go above and beyond the minimum installation requirements. Consider drywall protection over composite I-joist, Reduce the space between draftstops and increase to a fire wall construction, provide larger egress openings and multiple stairway out of basement areas. All these things can be used if the contractor and homeowner were not so concerned about the color of paint or design of the crown molding.

The old twenty minute rule on structure fires is a thing of the past and has been reduced to less then ten minutes from the time a call is "received" not on-scene time. All subject to change based on conditions. Many years ago I tried to order the battalion chief out of a barn building basement because of fear of collapse. He told me he was fine and did not come out. I later found out that the entire floor was concrete with concrete supports. Had plenty of time on that one. It pays to look around at the buildings in your community before you need to respond at 3 o'clock in the morning.

 

[gbhammer]

I have to admit that putting a sticker on the electrical meter is the most utterly sensible thing I have ever seen posted on this board. Which explains why the scarlet letter crowd is so vocal.

That there is such a crowd is a shame, vocal or not.

'A bodily disease, which we look upon as whole and entire within itself, may, after all, be but a symptom of some ailment in the spiritual part.' ~Nathaniel Hawthorne,

The Scarlet Letter, Chapter X "The Leech and His Patient"

 

[Frank]

I would assume that any building on fire is very, very dangerous. Why would you need signs to differentiate between the levels of danger?

I worried less about my teenage son or daughter fighting fire, than driving or riding with other teenagers or young adults--

16-24 yr old driver fatality rate 44/100,000 deaths per year per 100 000 drivers. 11 000 deaths with drivers between 16 and 24 in 2008. Or about 1 out of 200 new drivers manages to kill themselves or another between ages 16 and 25.

Firefighter 2010 fatality rate overall 6/100,000 5 deaths of firefighters under 25 in 2010

 

[Mac]

"How come hazardous materials, combustibles & flammables get placards and we don't" said the trusses.

 

[TJacobs]

The Fire Marshals Association in our area pushed for identification stickers to be placed on the electric meter of all residential structures at the time of occupancy inspections. The sticker has symbols that identify to the fire fighters what type of construction is located in each area of the home. Our Fire Marshals Association has a membership that includes many of the counties building officials and we have bi-weekly code training sessions with many of the inspectors and representatives of all the different AHJs. We all have trained on the hazards of light weight construction. Knowledge and forewarning is how you save lives.

I could live with this, except my area is mostly built out, so, do you carry this over to anyone with a permit? Or retroactive ("Maam, we need to inspect your basement and attic.")?

How about having dispatch broadcast the presence of LWC at time of dispatch through the 911 database?

You can't beat preplanning, knowledge and experience.

 

[gbhammer]

I could live with this, except my area is mostly built out, so, do you carry this over to anyone with a permit? Or retroactive ("Maam, we need to inspect your basement and attic.")?How about having dispatch broadcast the presence of LWC at time of dispatch through the 911 database?

You can't beat preplanning, knowledge and experience.

The fire marshals carry the stickers in their vehicles and place them as they can while doing inspections on the home for whatever reason. It is not required that the sticker be in place. It is simply away for the departments to make a difference without trying to pass legislation (which is never as easy as some think it is). Getting 911 dispatch to change is like pushing a mountain.

 

[fireguy]

I could live with this, except my area is mostly built out, so, do you carry this over to anyone with a permit? Or retroactive ("Maam, we need to inspect your basement and attic.")?How about having dispatch broadcast the presence of LWC at time of dispatch through the 911 database?

You can't beat preplanning, knowledge and experience.

Spoken like you have ridden the tailboard.

 

[TJacobs]

Spoken like you have ridden the tailboard.

Until they wouldn't let us ride them anymore (late 50's/early 60's Macks), then it was open jump seats (70's Macks and a Peter Pirsch), then an enclosed Pierce.

 

[mark handler]

Now let's see where's that sign

Can't start fighting that fire without finding that sign....

 

[mark handler]

Now let's see where's that sign

Can't start fighting that fire without finding that sign....

No sign, let it burn....

 

[incognito]

Signs on a house to make firefighters aware of construction type. Funny stuff. Flashbacks of Jake Pauls wanting signs on all residential stairways if they did not meet his standards. Hard to tell which is more ridiculous. Oh yeah, Pauls also tried the tired old scare tactic of "you will get sued if you do not do what I say". But not to be unreasonable, I think putting a sticker on the electric meter is doable.

 

[Papio Bldg Dept]

The Fire Marshals Association in our area pushed for identification stickers to be placed on the electric meter of all residential structures at the time of occupancy inspections. The sticker has symbols that identify to the fire fighters what type of construction is located in each area of the home. Our Fire Marshals Association has a membership that includes many of the counties building officials and we have bi-weekly code training sessions with many of the inspectors and representatives of all the different AHJs. We all have trained on the hazards of light weight construction. Knowledge and forewarning is how you save lives.

We have recently amended our Building codes to include the provision of a Knox Box for the fire department in all new construction. I think this an excellent place to indicate such information. As for existing buildings, the fire department visits them every year, and if they wanted to negotiate with our local electrical utility to place construction type indicators on the electrical or water meters/PIV, then I would think that would be their responsibility and not exactly the building departments.

 

[Coug Dad]

We have recently amended our Building codes to include the provision of a Knox Box for the fire department in all new construction. I think this an excellent place to indicate such information. As for existing buildings, the fire department visits them every year, and if they wanted to negotiate with our local electrical utility to place construction type indicators on the electrical or water meters/PIV, then I would think that would be their responsibility and not exactly the building departments.

Including single family?

 

[gbhammer]

Now let's see where's that sign

Can't start fighting that fire without finding that sign....

If fire fighters respond to a location like that I don't believe that LWC is going to make a difference as to how they will proceed.

 

[gbhammer]

As for existing buildings, the fire department visits them every year, and if they wanted to negotiate with our local electrical utility to place construction type indicators on the electrical or water meters/PIV, then I would think that would be their responsibility and not exactly the building departments.

The building department has nothing to do with the stickers indicating LWC areas. It is all handled by the fire marshals. We have 13 fire districts in our county and the building department likes to work with them not for them. If we even seem to be doing their work they get a bit upset. Go figure.

 

[Papio Bldg Dept]

Including single family?

This does not include single and two family residential construction. Only those projects under the scope of the IBC are required to provide a Knox-Box.