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Floor joist toenailed to girder/beam.

K

Kao Chen

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Oct 23, 2009
Messages
28
Location
Lake of the Ozarks, Missouri
2006 IRC, Table R602.3(1).

Having an arguement with a local contractor. He contends that it is acceptable to toenail 2x10 floor joist into a beam/girder. The floor joist do not set upon the beam but are connected to the face of the beam.

I site TR602.3(1) fastener schedule. This type of connection is not listed and therefore an engineered hanger (joist-hanger, properly sized & nailed) is required.

Thanks for your opinions! The forums are a great source of education.
 
R502.10 Framing of openings. Openings in floor framing

shall be framed with a header and trimmer joists. When the

header joist span does not exceed 4 feet (1219 mm), the header

joist may be a single member the same size as the floor joist.

Single trimmer joistsmay be used to carry a single header joist

that is located within 3 feet (914mm) of the trimmer joist bear-

ing.When the header joist span exceeds 4 feet (1219 mm), the

trimmer joists and the header joist shall be doubled and of suffi-

cient cross section to support the floor joists framing into the

header. Approved hangers shall be used for the header joist to

trimmer joist connections when the header joist span exceeds 6

feet (1829 mm).Tail joists over 12 feet (3658mm)long shall be

supported at the header by framing anchors or on ledger strips

not less than 2 inches by 2 inches (51 mm by 51 mm).
 
Kao,

I do not have the 2006 IRC so my answer is based upon the 2009 IRC. Section R502.6 "the ends of each joist, beam or girder shall have not less than 1.5 inches of bearing on wood or metal and not less than 3 inches on masonry or concrete except where supported on a 1 inch by 4 inch ribbon strip and nailed to the adjacent stud or by the use of approved joist hangers."

He does not have the minimum 1.5 inches of bearing .... case closed.
 
R502.6 Bearing. The ends of each joist, beam or girder shall

have not less than 1.5 inches (38 mm) of bearing on wood or

metal and not less than 3 inches (76 mm) on masonry or con-

crete except where supported on a 1-inch-by-4-inch (25.4 mm

by 102mm)ribbon strip and nailed to the adjacent stud or by the

use of approved joist hangers.
 
Dang smart phone, a good carpenter, back in the good old days would at least pressure block that type of connection.
 
Please describe that connection, in as great a detail as you can, and would you allow it?
 
pressure blocks do not support the same way a hanger does. it is a carpenters attempt to do what it doesn't. pressure blocking is simply blocking between the joists when they are toe nailed to a beam or ledger, pttttttttt! hangers or a ledger strip, plain and simple. pressure blocking does not provide the downward forces resistance nor the lateral support a hanger will provide
 
Well about a hundred years ago when I first broke into the biz and was framing, we seldom saw framing anchors. On a 2 X 10 we would typically use 16d toe nails to make this connection. Typically we would use not less than 3 on one side and not less than two ont eh other. In those instances where we felt that connectionw as at all questionable we would place a full sized tight fitting block between every other floor joist. That block was securely anchored (nailed) to the beam and then additional through nails would be placed through the joists into said blocking. It was actually quite effective.

But then that was before the current fastination with all things metal and I will admit that typically the lumber was better also.
 
codeworks said:
pressure blocks do not support the same way a hanger does. it is a carpenters attempt to do what it doesn't. pressure blocking is simply blocking between the joists when they are toe nailed to a beam or ledger, pttttttttt! hangers or a ledger strip, plain and simple. pressure blocking does not provide the downward forces resistance nor the lateral support a hanger will provide
Click to expand...
We discussed this in November 2010. http://www.inspectpa.com/forum/showthread.php?3037-pressue-blocking/page5&highlight=power+blocking

Codeworks,

Pressure or power blocking certainly does support the same way a hanger does. Here's the picture I posted back in 2010. With blocking on both sides of the joist haw can you dismiss the lateral support. Additionally as Big Mac described he would use five 16d toe nails. After the power blocking is installed the carpenter can now move out 1 1/2" and do it again.

PowerBlock.jpg


Interestingly enough Simpson borrows the technique in their double shear line of joist hangers.

I like the technique because it gives a cleaner plane for the ceiling.

Bill
 
R502.6 Bearing. The ends of each joist, beam or girder shall have not less than 1.5 inches (38 mm) of bearing on wood or metal and not less than 3 inches (76 mm) on masonry or concrete except where supported on a 1-inch-by-4-inch (25.4 mm by 102 mm) ribbon strip and nailed to the adjacent stud or by the use of approved joist hangers.

Where are pressure blocks?
 
Tail joists over 12 feet (3658mm)long shall be

supported at the header by framing anchors or on ledger strips

not less than 2 inches by 2 inches (51 mm by 51 mm).

Though not a prescriptive option in the code. Do you seriously think the connection I described for blocking and nailing is any less structurally sound than supporting the joists on a 2" X 2" ledger strip? Just sayin
 
Do you seriously think the connection I described for blocking and nailing is any less structurally sound than supporting the joists on a 2" X 2" ledger strip?

I'm not qualified to say - has that connection been stamped by a DP?
 
I do on occasion talk to myself, but not this time. So far I have resisted the urge to answer myself. My brother used to say, of course I'm talking to myself, that's the only way to get an intelligent conversation. On the other hand my brother never met you folks.

So far I have also resisted the urge to 'mack myself around, although from time to time I could probably use it. At least my wife thinks so.

Oh happy day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
What we couldn't get last time was a description of the connections. Now we have something to play with.

It can all be done from tables in the NDS so I don't see a need for a DP unless you also require one to read the Simpson catalog.

Assuming 16d sinkers and SPF dimensional lumber the single shear allowable design value is 100 lbs, multiply by the toenail factor and the maxx allowable load/nail is 83 lbs in single shear. You don't have double shear without having that hanger holding the head end of the nail in place laterally. 415 lbs lateral capacity. End grain factor would apply to the pressure block/ joist nails, their max load is 67 lbs/nail. Call it 5 more for 335 lbs. Looks like the pressure block/ header needs at least 4 nails there. Total allowable load 415+335=750 lbs.

40psf LL+10psf DL on joists@16" oc = 66.5 lbs/ft on the joist. 750lbs/66.5=11.28'... the joists can be 22.5' long with this connection at each end.

Not advocating, just curious.
 
DRP,

If I follow, you calculated that with five toe nails and four nails in the pressure/power block. There are many more opportunities to add nails with blocks on both sides.

Good Job!

Bill
 
I had 5 toenails from joist to girder @ 83 lbs/nail, total 415 lbs capacity.

I then added pressure blocks nailing the blocks to the girder with 4 nails each, the nails in this orientation are good for 100 lbs/nail. The block is stuck to the girder with nails of 400 lbs total capacity.

The joists were nailed from their side into the end grain of the pressure block. The end grain factior is .67 so the capacity of those nails is 67 lbs/nail. Using 5 the total capacity is 335 lbs.

You can certainly add more nails, if I was shooting smaller nails definitely.
 
Power block? This a new term to me, never heard of it. Where did this term originate from?

I would require a hanger or ledger like the code requires if over 12ft. As far as a "power block" or "blocking" I would allow it in a non-load bearing application such as decorative ceder CJ with no gyp applied.

pc1
 
Pcinspector1 said:
Power block? This a new term to me, never heard of it. Where did this term originate from?I would require a hanger or ledger like the code requires if over 12ft. As far as a "power block" or "blocking" I would allow it in a non-load bearing application such as decorative ceder CJ with no gyp applied.

pc1
Click to expand...
I'm not surprised. A few years in the carpentry trades might give some perspective. Here in Oregon we refer to pressure blocks as power blocks cause we know pressure's got nothing to do with how the system works. I've been using it for thirty five years of inspected work and NEVER been called on it.

Bill
 
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