flow switch test did not trigger outside alarm

[condo-owner]

background: this is for 1 story triplex buildings (each owner has their own complete wet system). The flow switch test did not trigger the alarm in 13 of 58 units at a recent inspection. The buildings are 9-15 years old. Most likely the alarm never worked since day 1. No inspections have ever been done until recently. Most of us are original owners. Can you provide any best guess of likely causes? Is the alarm required by code? It is not connected to the fire department so it doesn't have a serious impact IMO. Neighbors will just assume false alarm and go on their way! This is the flow switch. (It actually runs vertical. I rotated the pic to read it.) Is this a CRITICAL failure?

fwiw, The original builder's electrical contractor had a history of mis-wiring components along the way (e1 grinder pumps). I don't know if a builder would hire a Fire Protection company with their own electrician who would know what they are doing or would they possibly tap the builder's onsite electrician who was a bit sketchy. The reason I bring up wiring is because I saw a video of how to install a flow switch and I (not an electrician or even slightly mechanically oriented) saw lots of opportunities for error. Is mis-wiring a possibility? Do these sensors fail on their own over time? What else could be wrong?

Thanks for reading this. Appreciate any guidance with my many questions.

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

Do you know if the systems are NFPA 13 or NFPA 13R?

Year of construction?

 

[condo-owner]

NFPA 13R. THe oldest one built 2006. The most recent was 2017. (the first builder went bankrupt so it was a slow buildout of the complex). Mine was built 2012. Let's stick with that one if it makes a difference.

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

I found a copy of NFPA 13R-2010, which may actually have been in effect in Massachusetts in 2012. A waterflow alarm is required. It does not have to be connected to the fire department.

 

[condo-owner]

I found a copy of NFPA 13R-2010, which may actually have been in effect in Massachusetts in 2012. A waterflow alarm is required. It does not have to be connected to the fire department.

View attachment 16422

Thank you. That takes care of 1 question. Now some speculation on why wouldn't it be working? (assume from day 1)

Also they called it "critical". Is that just hyperbole? Either it works or it doesn't. Is there a grading system of not-working?

 

[jar546]

Now some speculation on why wouldn't it be working? (assume from day 1)

Speculation only, and not sure of the relevance. The most important factor is that all flow switches trigger the alarm as required and are repaired or replaced.

 

[TheCommish]

R102.8 Maintenance of Existing Buildings and Structures

All buildings and structures and all parts thereof, both existing and new, and all systems and equipment therein which are regulated by 780 CMR shall be maintained in a safe, operable and sanitary condition. All service equipment, life safety/fire protection systems, means of egress, devices and safeguards which are required in a building or structure, or which were required by a previous statute in a building or structure, when erected, altered or repaired, shall be maintained in good working order.

You would have to hire a qualified technicians, electrician and possible sprinkle fitter to examine and tests the flow switch and sounding device. I would start with an electrician who is familiar with fire alarms and sprinkler systems

 

[condo-owner]

Actually, the condo association has contracted the fire sprinkler company to come fix them. They have already supplied a cost which astounds me how they could do that without assessing the actual problem at each unit. I think they detect a cash cow. The cost was high (IMO) and we have no idea what it entails. They will call to arrange appointments is all we got and have your checkbook ready!!! Ugh... Stay away from condo's. No control!!!

That's why I was looking for some specifics on possible repair details to try to assess that cost.

The company who did the inspections quoted over 2x what the selected company quoted.

I take it your beginning quote is addressing my question about "critical". i.e. there's no such thing. just "not in working order". That makes sense. Their use of the word critical I'm sure was intended to be intimidating.

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

Thank you. That takes care of 1 question. Now some speculation on why wouldn't it be working? (assume from day 1)

I have no idea, and I doubt that anyone can answer that from looking at a photograph.

Also they called it "critical". Is that just hyperbole? Either it works or it doesn't. Is there a grading system of not-working?

There is no sliding scale. The waterflow alarm has one job -- to set off an alarm if water flows in the system. It either works, or it doesn't.

 

[condo-owner]

I have no idea, and I doubt that anyone can answer that from looking at a photograph.

of course... I was thinking this forum might have folks in it who run into these types of things in the field

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

of course... I was thinking this forum might have folks in it who run into these types of things in the field

In all my years as an architect and a building official, I have never encountered a waterflow switch that didn't work. I have encountered other types of fire alarm devices that didn't work. As an architect or as a building official, it's not my job to stand around and watch a technician diagnose and repair the problem. I write it up, go away, and when someone calls to tell me it has been fixed I return and witness a new test.

 

[condo-owner]

Oh. Was thinking this might be a place fire sprinkler people are found.

 

[Gregg Harris]

The flow switch itself is simplistic, and wiring it to the alarm bell is also straightforward. The hardest part is being a wet system; there are no isolation valves to allow the switch to be replaced. Draining is required to replace

 

[condo-owner]

Good info! Thanks for the warning. There goes the flower beds (right under the drain - sigh). I wonder if I can find a fitting to attach a hose to drain into the lawn further away.

can they inspect the wiring without draining? (just in case... trying to be optimistic)

 

[Gregg Harris]

Yes, wiring can be checked first. And yes some fittings can be used temporarily to extend the drainage area

 

[condo-owner]

There is no sliding scale. The waterflow alarm has one job -- to set off an alarm if water flows in the system. It either works, or it doesn't.

As I said earlier, that makes sense. Some interesting further activity has come forward on that topic. The trustees went to the FD for additional support on this issue (was unnecessary because no one is arguing not to do it. just trying to make sense of their confusing notification). The FD also used the word "critical deficiency". He should know better I would think. working/not-working in-good-order/not-in-good-order, pass/fail, yes/no

Also we finally received a copy of the inspectors report/estimate of repairs and their report stated "Severity: critical". I'm sure the trustees loved that word because it supports their power play. ugh.

Anyhow, in the report it is now apparent that most of the failures were ITV related (missing or broken). Only 2 were flow-switch alarm failures. Their notification letter totally mixed up what was specific to me and what was for the whole complex. Communication skills, please.

I also see in the first quote (not the one we are going with), their estimate states the cost of a flow-switch is $400. Amazon around $200. Is that kind of markup typical? Labor $1500. Wow! No wonder they didn't get the bid! Maybe they didn't want the work for some weird reason.

The 2nd quote does not break down parts/labor just $525 total. You guys are probably not the right audience for these questions, but throwing it out there anyhow if these numbers make sense? Also the 2nd quote said would be less if only repair needed not replace. I like that! Seems like the right contractor for the job.

Thanks!

UPDATE: Just took a closer look at the first bid with outrageous labor. It's worse. One place it says standard labor $1500. Another place it says 1 technician 1 apprentice. $2300. BOTH numbers are included in the grand total of the proposal. Wow Wow Wow

 

[TheCommish]

IMHO, given the liability and overhead of running a company that is workings on life safe systems, 1500 is not bad at all. I would be suspicious of low ball quotes. Does the low price have proper licensing, insurance, staying power to warentee the work, provide clean up cost if water damage occurs during the work or thereafter?

Is the device from Amazon an actual listed device or cheep knock off.

I have seen calculations that just to start the company truck was $90.00, having been in business ic ann agree with that.

 

[condo-owner]

IMHO, given the liability and overhead of running a company that is workings on life safe systems, 1500 is not bad at all.

see my update. It's $3800!!!

Keep in mind they are doing 13 repairs in the same complex (over a few days). There is some efficiency there.

We've used the 2nd company before. They do work on our 4-plex building that has a quite different major system in it (NPFA13). And they installed a Pressure Gauge in my unit a couple of years ago. It was reasonable price. They were doing some pressure gauge testing/replacing/drain-necessitated (i forget the details) to everybody else at a higher charge. But my unit didn't have a pressure gauge at all. He installed one which was a simpler operation and charged me a fraction of what the other folks were being charged. Reasonable. I'm comfortable with him doing this work.

 

[Gregg Harris]

As I said earlier, that makes sense. Some interesting further activity has come forward on that topic. The trustees went to the FD for additional support on this issue (was unnecessary because no one is arguing not to do it. just trying to make sense of their confusing notification). The FD also used the word "critical deficiency". He should know better I would think. working/not-working in-good-order/not-in-good-order, pass/fail, yes/no

Also we finally received a copy of the inspectors report/estimate of repairs and their report stated "Severity: critical". I'm sure the trustees loved that word because it supports their power play. ugh.

Anyhow, in the report it is now apparent that most of the failures were ITV related (missing or broken). Only 2 were flow-switch alarm failures. Their notification letter totally mixed up what was specific to me and what was for the whole complex. Communication skills, please.

I also see in the first quote (not the one we are going with), their estimate states the cost of a flow-switch is $400. Amazon around $200. Is that kind of markup typical? Labor $1500. Wow! No wonder they didn't get the bid! Maybe they didn't want the work for some weird reason.

The 2nd quote does not break down parts/labor just $525 total. You guys are probably not the right audience for these questions, but throwing it out there anyhow if these numbers make sense? Also the 2nd quote said would be less if only repair needed not replace. I like that! Seems like the right contractor for the job.

Thanks!

UPDATE: Just took a closer look at the first bid with outrageous labor. It's worse. One place it says standard labor $1500. Another place it says 1 technician 1 apprentice. $2300. BOTH numbers are included in the grand total of the proposal. Wow Wow Wow

You appear to have an issue with the term "critical deficiency." Having a fire in a section of a building and not setting off an alarm that all tenants can hear is a critical issue. Will the system function without it? Sure, but is it safe NO

 

[condo-owner]

Sure, no argument with getting the alarm fixed. Just don't like when they use inaccurate words for effect. I am a software engineer/nerd and believe words and accuracy matter. The alarm is not in working order says what the actual condition is.

 

[condo-owner]

Having a fire in a section of a building and not setting off an alarm that all tenants can hear is a critical is

no tenants involved. each unit owner has their own complete wet system.

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

no tenants involved. each unit owner has their own complete wet system.

Who owns the sprinkler systems, the unit owners or the condo association? Do the declaration documents even address that question?

 

[condo-owner]

Ah! that's a touchy subject! We own them when they cost money; they own them when they want to control them!

Kidding aside, technically the governing docs say that utilities and lines that serve a single unit are the unit owners responsibility and not part of common area. But then the insurance company gets in the act and wants to mitigate risks... e.g. sprinkler inspections, dryer vent cleaning. A lot of these condo mandates have been driven by the property management company (who is driven by all sorts of other entities - insurance brokers, property management consortiums, etc. etc. ). And technically the PM company answers to the Trustees, but in reality, the PM company pushes their agenda/advice as well.

I love/hate this condo thing... I want my SFH back!!!!

 

[jar546]

I also see in the first quote (not the one we are going with), their estimate states the cost of a flow-switch is $400. Amazon around $200. Is that kind of markup typical? Labor $1500. Wow! No wonder they didn't get the bid! Maybe they didn't want the work for some weird reason.

There is a lot of junk on Amazon that is cheaper, but does not meet minimum standards, such as a UL standard or any of the required certifications.

Just don't like when they use inaccurate words for effect. I am a software engineer/nerd and believe words and accuracy matter. The alarm is not in working order says what the actual condition is.

You are out of your area of expertise. You can have your opinion all day long, though.