Foam Insulation?

Francis Vineyard · Jul 31, 2012

Those Yankee's did a good job

The latest ICC-ESR for 2012 is much improved written so that is easier to comprehend than the past. It's enough work to keep up with all the changes of what type can be installed without ignition barriers.

They have a tool to measure the thickness of the film; I believe it would be a destructive test about the size of a pin hole, but then you are only measuring that one tiny spot.

Francis

steveray · Jul 31, 2012

Bama.....do you see the nails from stud to plate? Do you see how every shingle is nailed or that all of the step flashing is installed? Sometimes we need to accept more than we can see.....Is it a perfect system or a guarantee? No.....but if you can work with your contractors to come up with a way to verify that makes you comfortable.... everybody wins.....

Bama dav · Jul 31, 2012

Steve,No I don't see every nail in a shingle.I do hope you can see the difference between a shingle missing a nail and a product that can cause the loss of a life.You may be an expert on foam insulation,but I am not and I tend not to take a contractors word on a product that could be a life safety issue.Please do your homework on spray foam insulation!

GCtony · Aug 1, 2012

Bama, It's a team thing your missing out on. Inspectors have to trust the contractor as much as the contractor needs to trust his inspector. Lots of contractors and inspectors work by this mutual understanding until someone breaks that trust. In over 30 years, I've never tried to BS or lie to an inspector. Only once in all those years where I felt I had to step on an inspector's toes. He ended up working a desk job and left the city after about a year. He wasn't cut out to do a very difficult job.

ICE · Aug 1, 2012

Tony,

The team that you refer to is a team of one. There is all the platitude stuff like "working together toward a common goal" etc. but when it comes to an inspector's approval, contractors aren't on the bus.

Inspectors do not have to trust anyone for anything. The fact that we do, in no way validates the premise that we must.

steveray · Aug 2, 2012

ICE and Bama, All I am saying is, "we" usually need to direct the contractor as to what we need to see to make us comfortable....if you have the time to sit and watch the entire job...Great!....If you find it neccessary to make them hire a special inspector to sign off on they spray applied coatings, Great!....But at some point we need to tell them what we need to see to sign off....it's not code, it's policy....look at 109.1.5 and 109.1.7......

Bama dav · Aug 2, 2012

Tony,believe me I understand sometimes an inspector has to has to trust a contractor.But I will never be part of a contractors team.As an inspector my job is to protect the public,as a builder your job is to make money,a lot of times the two don't mix.

Robert Ellenberg · Aug 3, 2012

Doesn't the the installer have the right under the code to certify it and it has to be accepted?

N1101.4 Building thermal envelope insulation. An R-value identification mark shall be applied by the manufacturer to each piece of building thermal envelope insulation 12 inches (305 mm) or more wide. Alternately, the insulation installers shall provide a certification listing the type, manufacturer and R-value of insulation installed in each element of the building thermal envelope. For blown or sprayed insulation (fiberglass and cellulose), the initial installed thickness, settled thickness, settled R-value, installed density, coverage area and number of bags installed shall be listed on the certification. For sprayed polyurethane foam (SPF) insulation, the installed thickness of the area covered and R-value of installed thickness shall be listed on the certificate. The insulation installer shall sign, date and post the certificate in a conspicuous location on the job site.

Bama dav · Aug 3, 2012

Robert, you are correct dealing with the r-value.Was talking about thermal and ignition barriers required in chapter 3 for foam plastics.Thanks for all the help.Worked it out several days ago with the the foam contractors in my area.Where a thermal barrier is required-cover with 1/2 sheetrock,where ignition barrier reguired - cover or spray applieded intumesant spray as required by icc-es report. Subject to change!

peach · Aug 7, 2012

Most jurisdictions accept the ceiling "lid" as the ignition barrier; if there is attic equipment, probably need to protect the rafters too. There is a spray on coating that can be accepted instead of a thermal barrier.

inspectorgadget · Aug 14, 2012

since were on the topic of insulation i have a quick question . i have a 6 unit apartment building with brick on the outside & masonary block inner wall . tenant had a leak & took down some drywall & mold every where. the drywall was cut from floor up 5 ft thru out the whole unit . in some outer walls their is furring strips in the living room & 2 bedrooms , then 2x4 plumbing wall

& closets & so on. before i went into the unit the tenant came in for a permit & on the review i required them to put in r-19 in the wall . i have seen some replies in this thread that say to just fill the cavity & be done with it. why the furring strips ? should the furring strips be made into a 2x4 walls ? is a vapor barrier required ? one of the requirements in our town is when you open walls you are required to come up to current codes .

thanks in advance

Sifu · Aug 14, 2012

If I understand the situation.....the exterior walls should not be in contact with the wood unless it is treated. And if you only have 2x4 walls how are you getting r-19? Check foot-note "L" for weather resistive barrier (2006 IRC T703.4) to see what conditions will apply to your job. Though requiring that to be corrected probably not feasible.

tmurray · Aug 15, 2012

Sifu said:
If I understand the situation.....the exterior walls should not be in contact with the wood unless it is treated. And if you only have 2x4 walls how are you getting r-19? Check foot-note "L" for weather resistive barrier (2006 IRC T703.4) to see what conditions will apply to your job. Though requiring that to be corrected probably not feasible.

A closed cell (2lb) spray foam typically has an r-value of 6 per inch

steveray · Aug 15, 2012

I know we have something for existing stuff that says something to the affect...."fill the cavity"...no code section right now....

Might be able to use this.....3403.3 Nonstructural.

Nonstructural alterations or repairs to an existing building or structure are permitted to be made of the same materials of which the building or structure is constructed, provided that they do not adversely affect any structural member or the fire-resistance rating of any part of the building or structure.

Francis Vineyard · Aug 15, 2012

inspectorgadget said:
since were on the topic of insulation i have a quick question . i have a 6 unit apartment building with brick on the outside & masonary block inner wall . tenant had a leak & took down some drywall & mold every where. the drywall was cut from floor up 5 ft thru out the whole unit . in some outer walls their is furring strips in the living room & 2 bedrooms , then 2x4 plumbing wall & closets & so on. before i went into the unit the tenant came in for a permit & on the review i required them to put in r-19 in the wall . i have seen some replies in this thread that say to just fill the cavity & be done with it. why the furring strips ? should the furring strips be made into a 2x4 walls ? is a vapor barrier required ? one of the requirements in our town is when you open walls you are required to come up to current codes .

thanks in advance

inspectorgadget this is worthy of a new thread and is spray foam in the walls? Assuming climate zone 5 and above with R-19 in wood frame walls but what code is the building constructed under and what current codes are adopted; i.e. IBC?

Is the leak the source of moisture or condensation?

As others point out the code requires alterations meet current structural and fire provisions but not energy as it could be cost prohibitive. Masonry walls or mass walls require reduced R-value; even less in 2003 and previously than today.

Furring strips should be decay resistant and are a nailing surface for the wall covering. Moisture barriers are not required on masonry walls but if there is then it can contribute to moisture problems as water can be trapped in the wall cavity especially if a vapor barrier; not retarder is installed directly behind the interior wall.

Hope this helps at least a little bit!

Francis

georgia plans exam · Aug 15, 2012

steveray,

See Section 101.4.3 exc #3, 2009 iecc.

GPE

inspectorgadget · Aug 21, 2012

Francis Vineyard said:
inspectorgadget this is worthy of a new thread and is spray foam in the walls? Assuming climate zone 5 and above with R-19 in wood frame walls but what code is the building constructed under and what current codes are adopted; i.e. IBC?Is the leak the source of moisture or condensation?

As others point out the code requires alterations meet current structural and fire provisions but not energy as it could be cost prohibitive. Masonry walls or mass walls require reduced R-value; even less in 2003 and previously than today.

Furring strips should be decay resistant and are a nailing surface for the wall covering. Moisture barriers are not required on masonry walls but if there is then it can contribute to moisture problems as water can be trapped in the wall cavity especially if a vapor barrier; not retarder is installed directly behind the interior wall.

Hope this helps at least a little bit!

Francis

yes the leak in the wall was the problem . what insulation fits in a wall with furring strips ?

Francis Vineyard · Aug 21, 2012

Rigid foam

Francis

inspectorgadget · Aug 21, 2012

Francis Vineyard said:
Rigid foamFrancis

thats the only solution ?

Sifu · Aug 21, 2012

Back to spray foam for a minute. Have an installation of open cell in a vaulted rafter. No 1" air space. I have ESR-1172 and I have IRC 806.3. ESR, section 8.2 indicates the application must be vented per R806.3. R806.3 requires the 1" air space. The installer is going nuts. I have contacted the manufacturer (Demilec) but havn't heard back. The installer and MFR website indicate that the "attic assembly" need not be vented. I am not sure I see a vaulted rafter as an attic assembly in the sense the code intends since there is no space between the two elements listed. The MFR website indicates that the open cell foam used is air impermeable at the installed depth and therefore no condensation can occur, negating the need for the air space/ventilation. DON"T KNOW WHAT TO DO! Code does not except spray foam, ESR doesn't seem to provide any help either. Any of you dealt with this? Is a vaulted rafter filled with insulation considered an attic?

R806.4 Conditioned attic assemblies. Unvented conditioned attic assemblies (spaces between the ceiling joists of the top story and the roof rafters) are permitted under the following

Francis Vineyard · Aug 21, 2012

inspectorgadget said:
thats the only solution ?

No, but it is what is mostly used with furred masonry walls in my location. Cannot list all the possible products, with all the relevant information we can advise if it complies.

Francis

Francis Vineyard · Aug 21, 2012

Sifu said:
Back to spray foam for a minute. Have an installation of open cell in a vaulted rafter. No 1" air space. I have ESR-1172 and I have IRC 806.3. ESR, section 8.2 indicates the application must be vented per R806.3. R806.3 requires the 1" air space. The installer is going nuts. I have contacted the manufacturer (Demilec) but havn't heard back. The installer and MFR website indicate that the "attic assembly" need not be vented. I am not sure I see a vaulted rafter as an attic assembly in the sense the code intends since there is no space between the two elements listed. The MFR website indicates that the open cell foam used is air impermeable at the installed depth and therefore no condensation can occur, negating the need for the air space/ventilation. DON"T KNOW WHAT TO DO! Code does not except spray foam, ESR doesn't seem to provide any help either. Any of you dealt with this? Is a vaulted rafter filled with insulation considered an attic?R806.4 Conditioned attic assemblies. Unvented conditioned attic assemblies (spaces between the ceiling joists of the top story and the roof rafters) are permitted under the following

8.2 In the "Application with a Prescriptive Ignition Barrier" note 2006 IRC is not included to have ventilation with conditioned attics R806.4.

Also the ESR states ventilation is required "as applicable" when the insulation is installed prescriptively above the ceiling floor and under the roof deck in vaulted ceilings with permeable insulation. Need to read the applicable ESR for the minimum amount of insulation when it determines to be air-impermeable.

Attics are the space between the ceiling joist of the top story and the roof rafters. Vaulted ceilings are "enclosed rafter spaces" or ceilings without attic spaces; 2006 N1102.2.1

Where ventilation is not desired with the insulation is applied under the roof deck such as vaulted ceilings; I suggest using 2009 and later editions table below for the prescribed impermeable R-value. 2006 N1102.5 permits ceilings to not require ventilation provided with a vapor retarder, but this is has not been encouraged; the potential for air leakage is high. Don't know the earlier code sections.

TABLE R806.4 INSULATION FOR CONDENSATION CONTROL

[TR] [TD]

CLIMATE ZONE

[/TD] [TD]

MINIMUM RIGID BOARD ON AIR-IMPERMEABLE INSULATION R-VALUEa

[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]

2B and 3B tile roof only

[/TD] [TD]

0 (none required)

[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]

1, 2A, 2B, 3A, 3B, 3C

[/TD] [TD]

R-5

[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]

4C

[/TD] [TD]

R-10

[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=width: 339, bgcolor: transparent]

4A, 4B