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Foundation Drainage

Discussion in 'Residential Foundation Codes' started by jar546, May 1, 2015.

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Foundation Drainage

  1. Yes, Pass

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  2. No, Fail

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  1. jar546

    jar546 *****istrator

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    The planned use of this vertical pvc pipe is for one of the gutter leaders.There may or may not be other issues here.IRC applies[​IMG]

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  2. jdfruit

    jdfruit Sawhorse

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    What I see just from the photo;

    vertical pipe looks to be metal; incompatible joint to pvc

    pvc tee does not have drainage turn; should be required due to water volume expected from roof

    drain rock bed appears to be ungraded; typical (in our area) is 3/4" min rock size to allow water movement

    no silt barrier (unless straw is intended for that use and somehow is an approved method in the area)

    our local ordinances require separate rain water leader piping so the hydrostatic wall bottom drain is not adversely affected by having rainwater flow surcharging the soil through the hydrostatic perforated pipe inlets.
     
  3. conarb

    conarb Sawhorse

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    I think this is changing, that's the way I've done it for 65 years, first Orangeburg, then that corrugated HDPE pipe, now PVC, two sets of drainage, perforated subdrains and solid for roof water. I recently applied for a permit for an addition to my own home (level lot), the city made me provide civil engineering, the CE dumped them all into one set of perforated lines. I took the 3 C sheets (Grading, Erosion, Erosion Notes) into the city expecting them to red line it into two sets of pipes, to my surprise it came back approving the CE's design. I figured I'd just install the two sets during construction but called the CE asking why, his answer is to dissipate the roof water on the property instead of sticking it into the city's storm drainage system, in places he actually has the roof leaders running into landscaped areas when possible, but they still charged me a 65ยข per square foot fee for all hard surfaced areas (roof, patio, driveways, sidewalks, etc.), I guess I could have avoided some of this fee by going away from concrete and using those pavers that allow drainage.
     
  4. fatboy

    fatboy Administrator

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    In addition to JD's comments, it's covered, don't have any idea what the rest looks like, also appears to have backslope, but maybe that's a camera thing.
     
  5. north star

    north star Sawhorse

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    = & = & =



    Need purple primer on all joints.

    Need entire length of drain to be uncovered for pressure

    testing & visible inspection thereof, ...also the trench in which it is laying.

    Need all joints & materials to be "cleaned off" to my level of acceptance.

    Doesn't there need to be a layer or layers of non-permeable wrap on that

    foundation wall, instead of just that layer of parging goo ? :eek:

    More requirements may be needed when that $@%&* is uncovered.

    = & = & =
     
  6. mtlogcabin

    mtlogcabin Sawhorse

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    I don't inspect foundation drainage systems.
     
  7. conarb

    conarb Sawhorse

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    How are you going to pressure check drains if the CE prescribes holes in the drains at the city's request? Where are drainage pipe specifications in the code? If the AHJ does not require a CE to design the system what are your municipal ordinance prescriptive requirements?
     
  8. MASSDRIVER

    MASSDRIVER Sawhorse

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    Which is funny because San Francisco insists that every drop of water that is in the house, or hits the house, has to go into the sewer system. That's why you see a vent grate in every driveway next to the sidewalk. The result is that in heavy storms some areas, like at the bottom of Nob Hill, tend to back flood into the residences.

    Go figure.

    Brent.
     
  9. conarb

    conarb Sawhorse

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    That's because San Francisco does not have a storm drainage system, only a sanitary sewage system, you can see it discharge into the Pacific Ocean in a big pipe at Ocean Beach. With heavy rains the volume overloads the sewage treatment plant and raw sewage discharges into the ocean, they have been trying to do something about it for decades, increasing the size of the treatment plant but have never undertaken adding a storm drainage system. The more people you have the more taxes you can collect and the more people you can hire, but the more $hit you get too.
     
  10. north star

    north star Sawhorse

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    @ ~ ~ ~ @

    Con,

    Whoever is installing the pvc joints & pipe can install all of the

    components other than the perforated pipe first, ...seal off,

    and test..........Then, after passing the test, they can then

    install the perforated piping last.

    Asked another way, ...would you accept the work in the

    picture if it were your own Residence ?

    @ ~ ~ ~ @
     
  11. jar546

    jar546 *****istrator

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    I'll have to chime in here with a few points.First, there is no code requirement for footer drains to be pressure tested because it is perforated and there is simply no verbiage in the code requiring testing. I personally, am not aware of anyone ever requiring this. If anyone's jurisdiction has a requirement for this, please let us know.Second, the covering and aggregate does not meet the requirements for the drain itself so that is another issue. Third, emptying the roof runoff into the footer drain? Really? Want to flood your basement even quicker? But, is this a code violation?Lastly, I have yet to see one single IRC code reference as to why someone would fail this installation. One of the most important parts of this forum for education is not just hearing someone's opinion but having their interpretation backed up by an actual code reference.I think we need more code references and less "we've always done it that way" or "In my opinion I..." or even worse "Because I said so," Then we sound just like the contractors that we are failing.[​IMG]

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    Ty J. likes this.
  12. mark handler

    mark handler Sawhorse

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    Is any portion of the pipe perforated.?
     
  13. ICE

    ICE Sawhorse

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    I haven't found any code that would prevent the roof gutters from connecting to the foundation drain.
     
    #13 ICE, May 2, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: May 2, 2015
  14. fatboy

    fatboy Administrator

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    @ Mark, hence my comment about it being covered, for all I know, the whole thing terminates at the point of coverage............don't know if it is compliant, or not......that's my code violation to start with.
     
  15. conarb

    conarb Sawhorse

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    As I said above this is my first incident of seeing this in 65 years in this business. In order to get the permit you have to secure Public Works approval, the engineer in Public Works refused to approve without a civil engineer designing the system (for an addition on a level lot), the CE created three sheets that I incorporated into the plans, the C sheets then became a requirement enforced by the field inspector.
    Since it's not a code requirement but a Public Works requirement there is no applicable code requirement but a judgment call on the part of the CE, we have few basements around here and if the home did have a basement the CE's design may have been different, but my understanding of the logic is storm runoff is to be minimized with an attempt to absorb all rainwater landing on the property into the property rather than putting it into the storm system where it can pick up oil in the streets and end up in the ocean killing birds and fish. In Napa County they are no longer allowing hard-surface paving to absorb rainwater. [​IMG] This house, built by my former superintendent, has all crushed pebble driveways and walkways. In a home I built in Santa Clara County there were no gutters, even though gutters are a requirement of the CPC, the engineered design had 4' overhangs with perforated drains in rock-filled trenches directly under the edges of the overhangs. In the case I mentioned on my own property if there were a basement I suspect the engineered design would have had separate systems then tied them together into one perforated system in an engineered leach system on the property, I think it's only as a last resort that water is allowed into the storm drainage system.
    I think "code enforcement" is a thing of the past, with everything going to engineered designs the proper term should be "plan-enforcement", the planning, building, fire, Public Works, and other departments approve plans that are then enforced by the field inspector. In the Santa Clara home I mentioned on the first visit the field inspector told me: "I don't have any power on this home, it's too complex, your inspections will be handled by Jennifer XX". He handed me her my card and she has an alphabet soup of certifications including SE.It was about 15 years ago that a CBO wouldn't even allow me to build a dormer on a friend's home based upon an architect's plans without structural engineering, now we are requiring civil engineering on all drainage systems. View attachment 1179

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    #15 conarb, May 2, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: May 2, 2015
  16. jwilly3879

    jwilly3879 Sawhorse

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    I built a lakeside home and was told that my foundation drains had to run to daylight. I pointed out that my drainage was inside the footer to a sump pit. The inspector insisted the county required them to daylight I pointed out that the spring level of the lake was 2 feet above the footers and I didn't think the drains would work. He eventually saw my point.
     
  17. mtlogcabin

    mtlogcabin Sawhorse

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    R405.1Exception: A drainage system is not required when the foundation is installed on well-drained ground or sand-gravel mixture soils according to the Unified Soil Classification System, Group I Soils, as detailed in Table R405.1.[​IMG]ConarbMaybe the exception is why you have never installed one

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  18. mtlogcabin

    mtlogcabin Sawhorse

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    Chapter 33 Storm Drainage. Rainwater infiltration into the ground adjacent to a building can cause the interior of foundation walls to become wet. The installation of a subsoil drainage system prevents the build-up of rainwater on the exterior of the foundation walls. This chapter provides the specifications for subsoil drain piping. Where the discharge of the subsoil drain system is to a sump, this chapter also provides coverage for sump construction, pumps and discharge piping.

    P3302.1 Subsoil drains.

    Subsoil drains shall be open-jointed, horizontally split or perforated pipe conforming to one of the standards listed in Table P3302.1. Such drains shall be not less than 4 inches (102 mm) in diameter. Where the building is subject to backwater, the subsoil drain shall be protected by an accessibly located backwater valve. Subsoil drains shall discharge to a trapped area drain, sump, dry well or approved location above ground. The subsoil sump shall not be required to have either a gas-tight cover or a vent. The sump and pumping system shall comply with Section P3303.

    A foundation drain is not part of a plumbing system and would not be subject the the testing requirements

    PLUMBING SYSTEM. Includes the water supply and distribution pipes, plumbing fixtures, supports and appurtenances; soil, waste and vent pipes; sanitary drains and building sewers to an approved point of disposal.
     
  19. mtlogcabin

    mtlogcabin Sawhorse

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    R801.3 Roof drainage.

    In areas where expansive or collapsible soils are known to exist, all dwellings shall have a controlled method of water disposal from roofs that will collect and discharge roof drainage to the ground surface at least 5 feet (1524 mm) from foundation walls or to an approved drainage system.

    Not an approved system per R405.1 therefore roof water disposal must discharge 5 feet from the foundation walls

     
  20. FLSTF01

    FLSTF01 Sawhorse

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    In Connecticut, we are under the 2009 IRC. The 2013 amendments to the 2009 IRC include section R405.3 which states: "Above grade drainage systems, including, but not limited to, gutters and downspouts, roof drains, and yard drains, shall not be connected to the foundation drainage system."
     

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