Garage-dwelling fire separation in an accessory structure

[Mr. Inspector]

IRC302.6 only requires Garage-dwelling fire separation between a garage and dwelling. Someone with a large pole building that is now a garage wants to build a kitchen, bathroom, home office and other rooms in part of the building. No bedroom. Shall I make them have a Garage-dwelling fire separation between the vehicle parking space and the finished rooms? Are smoke and CO2 alarms required in the finished space?

 

[Sifu]

From an IRC perspective, there is not a dwelling unit without facilities for sleeping, so no separation is required from the spaces, and no CO or smoke alarm requirement.

What are facilities for sleeping? Up to the AHJ to decide. I have run up against this a time or two. Very easy if the plans say "bedroom". Not so easy in a "studio". Easy with a bed, not so easy with just a couch. (Just one reason plans are so important.) Some AHJ's amend the definitions to broaden the interpretation in the desire to err on the side of caution. When I have had to face this and I didn't have a clear path to consider an area a sleeping facility, I redline a comment that removes any doubt as to how the approval is based. Worst case, you require these elements and if they argue, the burden is on them to demonstrate that they are not sleeping facilities or dwelling units.

We can't regulate behavior, no matter what the plans say, but the plans give us the validation to make or not make a call. So what to do if it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck, but the code says its not a duck? My answer....not a duck. Encourage based on safety and the fact that its just not that hard to do these simple, demonstrably life-saving things, but not sure you can cite a definitive path to minimum code.

 

[steveray]

We'll fix it in 2027 hopefully...

 

[Mr. Inspector]

I am concerned because what they call an office looks like it could be a bedroom with a closet and also has no egress window. But I will guess I will have to review it as a office.

 

[ICE]

Many jurisdictions will not allow a second kitchen without planning dept approval. The written description should match the facts. If not, the description must change because the facts will not change. Suppose you are presented with a plan for a detached structure that has a kitchen, bathroom, media room, den, playroom, and library. No mention of a bedroom. Is this a dwelling?

 

[Mr. Inspector]

Many jurisdictions will not allow a second kitchen without planning dept approval. The written description should match the facts. If not, the description must change because the facts will not change. Suppose you are presented with a plan for a detached structure that has a kitchen, bathroom, media room, den, playroom, and library. No mention of a bedroom. Is this a dwelling?

I guess you don't have many Jewish people in your area. They have separate meat and dairy kitchens. We also get a lot of outside kitchens. Some people that do a lot of canning have a 2nd kitchen in the basement. Also some have their senior parents move in that want their own kitchen. Don't see anything wrong with that. Code does not care if you have 10 kitchens in a house.

 

[e hilton]

I guess you don't have many Jewish people in your area. They have separate meat and dairy kitchens. We also get a lot of outside kitchens. Some people that do a lot of canning have a 2nd kitchen in the basement. Also some have their senior parents move in that want their own kitchen. Don't see anything wrong with that. Code does not care if you have 10 kitchens in a house.

Where your logic fails … in this discussion … is that both the OP and Ice are talking about detached structures, not a second kitchen area in the same house. And your point about a second small kitchen for seniors … pretty sure there will be a bedroom on the plans.

 

[ICE]

I guess you don't have many Jewish people in your area.

Mostly Asian. Outdoor kitchens are popular. The Planning dept does not allow them for fear of there becoming a second dwelling. I would find the plumbing roughed inside the wall with the intent to install the rest after I was gone. Quite often I had to remind them to place a receptacle or two for the counter. They would then rough it in through the wall. I figure that they are going to have the outdoor kitchen no matter what it takes so the less damage to the envelope the better.

 

[TheCommish]

Writ the OC up as what the plans say add a note not to be used as a dwelling unit wiht out sleeping area

 

[Mr. Inspector]

Where your logic fails … in this discussion … is that both the OP and Ice are talking about detached structures, not a second kitchen area in the same house. And your point about a second small kitchen for seniors … pretty sure there will be a bedroom on the plans.

Did not know you were talking about detached structures. I do no know of a restriction for bedrooms or kitchens in a detached structure. if they had both and a bathroom of course it would make it a Single Family Dwelling which would then require Garage-dwelling separation and smoke and CO2 alarms. I was just looking to see if I can require it if they did not have all three (kitchen, bedroom, bathroom) which would define as a SFD.

What's wrong with another kitchen and bedroom? Nothing in the IRC or our state code about it. It seems to me that this would be more of a zoning and sewer department issues.

 

[mtlogcabin]

Shall I make them have a Garage-dwelling fire separation between the vehicle parking space and the finished rooms?

Code only requires 1/2" gypsum board on the garage side. If there is gypsum installed on the garage side of the wall (and attic) than the code requirement is met.



Is there an attic?

 

[Mr. Inspector]

The area that they want to build a bathroom, kitchen and office in the pole building garage will only have 8' walls and their own ceiling. But the roof of the pole building is 16' high. What would the ceiling over the rooms (which would be under the garage space) need to have if a separation was required?

 

[ICE]

The area that they want to build a bathroom, kitchen and office in the pole building garage will only have 8' walls and their own ceiling. But the roof of the pole building is 16' high. What would the ceiling over the rooms (which would be under the garage space) need to have if a separation was required?

5/8” type X drywall on the lid and 1/2” drywall on the structure that supports the lid. However there is no habitable space above the not a SFD so no lid separation is required …. Another however, the wall that separates the not a SFD is supposed to reach the roof. And the last however, since this is not a dwelling a separation is not required ….. there is no code for how to do nothing.

 

[e hilton]

….. there is no code for how to do nothing.

Thus the reason for not showing a BR o; the plans when everybody knows that’s the intent. Show the BR … invoke a whole new set of more expensive rules.

 

[my250r11]

I would have a hard time not believing its a bedroom if it has a closet. At a minimum clarify it is a storage closet and the room not to be used as a bedroom.

On the other hand adding a window now and the smoke & CO2 are easy. As well as the 5/8" sheetrock. To come back and do at a later time is more expensive and some insurance companies will see this as a dwelling unit and may require it to meet code or they won't insure.

 

[steveray]

Is this all moot (almost) as you likely have to fire protect the floor anyway?

R302.13 Fire protection of floors. Floor assemblies that are
not required elsewhere in this code to be fire-resistance
rated, shall be provided with a 1/2-inch (12.7 mm) gypsum
wallboard membrane, 5/8-inch (16 mm) wood structural
panel membrane, or equivalent on the underside of the floor
framing member. Penetrations or openings for ducts, vents,
electrical outlets, lighting, devices, luminaires, wires, speakers,
drainage, piping and similar openings or penetrations
shall be permitted.

 

[TheCommish]

Is this all moot (almost) as you likely have to fire protect the floor anyway?

R302.13 Fire protection of floors. Floor assemblies that are
not required elsewhere in this code to be fire-resistance
rated, shall be provided with a 1/2-inch (12.7 mm) gypsum
wallboard membrane, 5/8-inch (16 mm) wood structural
panel membrane, or equivalent on the underside of the floor
framing member. Penetrations or openings for ducts, vents,
electrical outlets, lighting, devices, luminaires, wires, speakers,
drainage, piping and similar openings or penetrations
shall be permitted.

Steveray, What about the exceptions to that section? including #4 wood floor assemblies using dimensional lumber or structural composite lumber equal to or greater than 2x10 nominal dimension...

 

[ICE]

Is this all moot (almost) as you likely have to fire protect the floor anyway?

R302.13 Fire protection of floors. Floor assemblies that are
not required elsewhere in this code to be fire-resistance
rated, shall be provided with a 1/2-inch (12.7 mm) gypsum
wallboard membrane, 5/8-inch (16 mm) wood structural
panel membrane, or equivalent on the underside of the floor
framing member. Penetrations or openings for ducts, vents,
electrical outlets, lighting, devices, luminaires, wires, speakers,
drainage, piping and similar openings or penetrations
shall be permitted.

When did the floor get into this discussion?

 

[steveray]

When did the floor get into this discussion?

If it is an "over/under" the floor would likely end up with drywall protection....Unless it is 2x10 (or better)...As Commish mentioned above...Hence "likely"...

EDIT: I reread and realized this one is not a drive under, so that might not be applicable here, but something to keep in mind....Side by side is more likely to have a drywall separation anyway, be it 1/2 or 5/8....

 

[e hilton]

When did the floor get into this discussion?

It’s at the bottom of everything.

 

[Inspector Gift]

Great topic!

As a Building Official, I do my best to inform and protect both the builders and the occupants of buildings. When it comes to Smoke Detectors and CO Detectors, I push to have them installed whenever it is likely and reasonable that a room will be used for guest sleeping room. Offices and dens are always on the main floor level of the homes being built in our area. The realtors often used advertise the offices as dens as potential as guest rooms if they have a closet.

When a separate building contains a kitchenette and bathroom and office room(s) then we also require them to have smoke and CO detectors. And is not uncommon to see them being used as rental units in my region, especially when located in separate buildings or when they are provided with separate entrances from the main dwelling.

In our Residential Code, neither a "Bed" nor a "Closet" is required for a room to be used as a bedroom, sleeping area or a "sleeping room". Per Section R314, Smoke Detectors are required in "Sleeping rooms" and outside each separate "Sleeping Area"...

To my knowledge, the word "BEDROOM" is not used in the current IRC definitions for "DWELLING" and "DWELLING UNIT", and a closet has never been a requirement for a room to qualify as a bedroom.

A Building Official could also classify the proposed area as an "Efficiency Dwelling Unit", as it meets the description in IBC 1207.4.

 

[Sifu]

Many of the AHJ's I work with have amended the code to add a definition that provides a path to deal with this. Here is one such added definition:

 

[Mr. Inspector]

Great topic!

As a Building Official, I do my best to inform and protect both the builders and the occupants of buildings. When it comes to Smoke Detectors and CO Detectors, I push to have them installed whenever it is likely and reasonable that a room will be used for guest sleeping room. Offices and dens are always on the main floor level of the homes being built in our area. The realtors often used advertise the offices as dens as potential as guest rooms if they have a closet.

When a separate building contains a kitchenette and bathroom and office room(s) then we also require them to have smoke and CO detectors. And is not uncommon to see them being used as rental units in my region, especially when located in separate buildings or when they are provided with separate entrances from the main dwelling.

In our Residential Code, neither a "Bed" nor a "Closet" is required for a room to be used as a bedroom, sleeping area or a "sleeping room". Per Section R314, Smoke Detectors are required in "Sleeping rooms" and outside each separate "Sleeping Area"...

To my knowledge, the word "BEDROOM" is not used in the current IRC definitions for "DWELLING" and "DWELLING UNIT", and a closet has never been a requirement for a room to qualify as a bedroom.

A Building Official could also classify the proposed area as an "Efficiency Dwelling Unit", as it meets the description in IBC 1207.4.

Just started using 2018 IRC here and this is what I have to use. No chances by the state or local. We have to go by what the plans call a room, no choice. I recommended smoke and CO2 alarms on my plan review but that's all I can do. Don't have section 1207.4 in the 2018 IBC

[RB] DWELLING UNIT. A single unit providing complete
independent living facilities for one or more persons, including
permanent provisions for living, sleeping, eating, cooking
and sanitation. For the definition applicable in Chapter 11,
see Section N1101.6.

R314.2 Where required. Smoke alarms shall be provided in
accordance with this section.
R314.2.1 New construction. Smoke alarms shall be provided
in dwelling units.
R314.2.2 Alterations, repairs and additions. Where
alterations, repairs or additions requiring a permit occur,
the individual dwelling unit shall be equipped with smoke
alarms located as required for new dwellings.
Exceptions:
1. Work involving the exterior surfaces of dwellings,
such as the replacement of roofing or siding,
the addition or replacement of windows or doors,
or the addition of a porch or deck.
2. Installation, alteration or repairs of plumbing or
mechanical systems.

The township I an reviewing this for requires permits for this work but most townships in PA per state law would not require a permit at all for this or even for a new unattached garage less than 2,000 sq ft.

Our state law also changed the code where only battery smoke and CO2 alarms are required in existing and additions where work is done to houses.

 

[Sifu]

Just started using 2018 IRC here and this is what I have to use. No chances by the state or local. We have to go by what the plans call a room, no choice. I recommended smoke and CO2 alarms on my plan review but that's all I can do. Don't have section 1207.4 in the 2018 IBC

I do the same, follow the law, encourage more when appropriate and when I can.