Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

[vegas paul]

Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

Please comment on this related issue:

I have SFD plans with the attic access in the garage (for attic mounted mechanical equipment that serves the entire house). The mechanical equipment is not above the garage, but it's centrally located in the main attic. This means that the attics above the garage and house are not separated, since you enter the attic above the garage and walk to the mechanical equipment.

Does this meet IRC R309.2?

 

[Oldman]

Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

If I may, what is the real intent of the gypsum board requirements within the IRC? Is it to prevent the spread of smoke, or carbon monoxide, or fire, or any combination of these?

The commentary indicates the 1/2" gypsum board is to prevent the spread of smoke or carbon monoxide and the 5/8” Type X gypsum board required to be installed under habitable room adds enhanced fire endurance whatever that is suppose to mean.

In my opinion the requirements within the code accomplishes very little in preventing the spread of smoke, or carbon monoxide, or fire.

.

 

[Oldman]

Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

Please comment on this related issue:I have SFD plans with the attic access in the garage (for attic mounted mechanical equipment that serves the entire house). The mechanical equipment is not above the garage, but it's centrally located in the main attic. This means that the attics above the garage and house are not separated, since you enter the attic above the garage and walk to the mechanical equipment.

Does this meet IRC R309.2?

This type of installation would not be allowed unless you separate the two attic spaces.

R309.2 The garage shall be separated from the residence and its attic area

meaning in my opinion the residence attic area and the garage area must be separated.

 

[Mule]

Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

Well, I'll be one to admit I have never required anything on a pull down stairs. Really have not thought about it until recently because of you guys and gals!

Isn't the attic stairway a penetration?

R309.1.2 Other penetrations........What is a penetration?

To penetrate

pen?e?trate??/?p?n??tre?t/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [pen-i-treyt] Show IPA verb, -trat?ed, -trat?ing.

Use penetrate in a Sentence

See web results for penetrate

See images of penetrate

–verb (used with object)

1. to pierce or pass into or through: The bullet penetrated the wall. The fog lights penetrated the mist.

2. to enter the interior of: to penetrate a forest.

3. to enter and diffuse itself through; permeate.

4. to arrive at the truth or meaning of; understand; comprehend: to penetrate a mystery.

5. to obtain a share of (a market): to penetrate the Canadian coffee market.

6. to affect or impress (the mind or feelings) deeply.

7. to extend influence, usually peacefully, into the affairs of (another country).

#1 to pierce or pass through. Isn't this what is happening with an attic stairway?

R309.1.2 Other penetrations. Penetrations through the

separation required in Section R309.2 shall be protected by

filling the opening around the penetrating item with

approved material to resist the free passage of flame and

products of combustion.

So why wouldn't an attic stairway comply with this section if it was sealed around the opening?

Just wondering?????

 

[Oldman]

Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

Well, I'll be one to admit I have never required anything on a pull down stairs. Really have not thought about it until recently because of you guys and gals!Isn't the attic stairway a penetration?

R309.1.2 Other penetrations........What is a penetration?

To penetrate

pen?e?trate??/?p?n??tre?t/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [pen-i-treyt] Show IPA verb, -trat?ed, -trat?ing.

Use penetrate in a Sentence

See web results for penetrate

See images of penetrate

–verb (used with object)

1. to pierce or pass into or through: The bullet penetrated the wall. The fog lights penetrated the mist.

2. to enter the interior of: to penetrate a forest.

3. to enter and diffuse itself through; permeate.

4. to arrive at the truth or meaning of; understand; comprehend: to penetrate a mystery.

5. to obtain a share of (a market): to penetrate the Canadian coffee market.

6. to affect or impress (the mind or feelings) deeply.

7. to extend influence, usually peacefully, into the affairs of (another country).

#1 to pierce or pass through. Isn't this what is happening with an attic stairway?

R309.1.2 Other penetrations. Penetrations through the

separation required in Section R309.2 shall be protected by

filling the opening around the penetrating item with

approved material to resist the free passage of flame and

products of combustion.

So why wouldn't an attic stairway comply with this section if it was sealed around the opening?

Just wondering?????

Or is it an opening?

R309.1 Opening protection. Openings from a private garagedirectly into a room used for sleeping purposes shall not be permitted.

Other openings between the garage and residence shall

be equipped with solid wood doors not less than 13/8 inches (35

mm) in thickness, solid or honeycomb core steel doors not less

than 13/8 inches (35 mm) thick, or 20-minute fire-rated doors.

 

[Mule]

Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

R309.1 Opening protection. Openings from a private garage

directly into a room used for sleeping purposes shall not be permitted.

Then it goes on to say in the same section;

Other openings between the garage and residence shall

be equipped with solid wood doors not less than 13/8 inches (35

mm) in thickness, solid or honeycomb core steel doors not less

than 13/8 inches (35 mm) thick, or 20-minute fire-rated doors.

It looks like the intent of this section is for openings in adjoining walls. Because it is talking about opening directly into a room used for sleeping purposes. And then it goes into "other openings". In otherwords other rooms that are not rooms used for sleeping purposes shall follow these rules.

In my opinion the attic stairway is "Other Penetrations" and only needs to be sealed around the attic stair.

 

[kilitact]

Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

R309.2 The garage shall be separated from the residence and its attic area. Doesn't say the garage attic shall be separated from the residental attic.

It looks like the intent of this section is for openings in adjoining walls. Because it is talking about opening directly into a room used for sleeping purposes. And then it goes into "other openings". In otherwords other rooms that are not rooms used for sleeping purposes shall follow these rules.In my opinion the attic stairway is "Other Penetrations" and only needs to be sealed around the attic stair.

I would agree with Mule.

 

Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

An opening into a ceiling is not an opening into a "residence". And what happened to "self closing, self latching and tight fitting" ? No matter what the code says or doesn't say, we have had a good grasp of the concept and it's validity for way too long to now toss it out.

 

[88twin]

Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

09 irc R302.6 Dwelling/garage fire separation. The garage shall be separated as required by Table R302.6. Openings in garage WALLS shall comply with section R302.5. This provision does not apply to garage walls that are perpendicular to the adjacent dwelling unit wall.

Table R302.6 Dwelling/Garage separation.

From the residence and attics-----------Not less than 1/2-inch gypsum board OR EQUIVALENT applied to the garage side.

according to 09 IBC Table 721.2.1.4(2) 1/2 -inch gypsum wallboard has a 15 min. time assigned to it.

according to 09 IBC Table 721.6.2(1) 19/32-inch wood structual panel bonded with exterior glue has a 15 min. time assigned to it.

so.. IMHO as long as the drop down stairs have a cover on them that is at least rated at 15 min. then the attic is protected to the minimum standard.

 

[JBI]

Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

Well, NYS still requires a minimum 45 minute seperation between the garage and any other portion of the dwelling. Easy.

 

[Mule]

Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

John, are you saying that the residential attic is separated from the garage attic? If so how does NY handle AC/Heating units in the attic? Would you have to have a door between the two attics? Or you guys just don't have attic units?

 

[JBI]

Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

Mule - Actually I'm saying that we require the garage to be seperated from ALL OTHER PORTIONS of the dwelling by 45 minute rated construction. The garage 'attic' is an 'other portion' and shall be seperated... We still compartmentalize the garage to isolate it from the remainder of the dwelling.

In the OP, IF the attic is continuous then the seperation between the garage and the attic must be complete and be rated a minimum of 45 minutes, that would include any openings or penetrations between.

 

[Builder Bob]

Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

R309.2 The garage shall be separated from the residence and its attic area.

Two options - do the garage or do one wall from the slab to the roof deck..

 

[hlfireinspector]

Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

All the classes I have been to stress that this was a smoke/co issue more than a fire rated wall issue. You all know us fire guys we see X-rock we jump on the opening protection. The battle we have is the gargae door with windows in it. If you notice all this goes away when it is a carport. Same hazards but is open on at least 2 sides. I was told this came from up north where they ran their cars inside to warm them up and the co went into the home via the unsealed areas between the garage and the living area. The 5/8 X-rock between garage and living space above just makes sense. The best solution in the class was rock from slab to roof with air tight 1 3/8" door in the attic wall to provide access to attic area over residence. You see that the duct and other pentration requriments are aimed at smoke and flame pentration not rated assemblies.

R309.1.1 Duct penetration. Ducts in the garage and ducts

penetrating the walls or ceilings separating the dwelling

from the garage shall be constructed of a minimum No. 26

gage (0.48 mm) sheet steel or other approved material and

shall have no openings into the garage.

R309.1.2 Other penetrations. Penetrations through the

separation required in Section R309.2 shall be protected by

filling the opening around the penetrating item with

approved material to resist the free passage of flame and

products of combustion.

 

[Glennman CBO]

Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

I recently approved a builder to install a sheet of 5/8 fire X over the plywood on a garage ceiling drop down ladder install. The code (2006 IRC) only states that the garage must be separated by 1/2" drywall where there is no habitable space above. He did a real nice job so that the edges were fully covered, with no noticable gaps. The added drywall overlapped the ceiling drywall by about inch all the way around.

In my previous jurisdiction, I had a project where the ladder was accessing an attic above a storage room (IRC house). I wrote the correction for the required R-38 insulation. They eneded up building a sort of "coffin" out of foam insulation that set over the ladder above. It was light enough to lift over to the side while accessing the attic, and they could place it back over the opening before putting the ladder away. It worked pretty slick.