GEC protection outside structure

[Inspector 102]

I seem to recall provisions in the NEC and IRC that a GEC that runs from the main disconnect to the ground rods did not have to be protected from physical damage if sized #4 or larger. A #6 GEC did require physical protection. Am I dreaming or are these provisions still in the code someplace that I cannot find?

 

[north star]

& - - - -

See Article 250.64(B) in the `08 NEC.

& - - - -

 

[steveray]

SECTION E3510 GROUNDING ELECTRODE CONDUCTORS

E3510.1 Installation.

A grounding electrode conductor or its enclosure shall be securely fastened to the surface on which it is carried. A 4 AWG or larger conductor shall be protected where exposed to severe physical damage. A 6 AWG grounding conductor that is free from exposure to physical damage shall be permitted to be run along the surface of the building construction without metal covering or protection where it is and securely fastened to the construction; otherwise, it shall be in rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, rigid nonmetallic conduit, electrical metallic tubing or cable armor. Grounding conductors smaller than 6 AWG shall be in rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, rigid nonmetallic conduit, electrical metallic tubing or cable armor.

 

[Gregg Harris]

2011 NEC 250.64

(B) Securing and Protection Against Physical Damage. Where exposed, a grounding electrode conductor or its enclosure shall be securely fastened to the surface on which it is carried. Grounding electrode conductors shall be permitted to be installed on or through framing members. A 4 AWG or larger copper or aluminum grounding electrode conductor shall be protected if exposed to physical damage. A 6 AWG grounding electrode conductor that is free from exposure to physical damage shall be permitted to be run along the surface of the building construction without metal covering or protection if it is securely fastened to the construction: otherwise, it shall be protected in rigid metal conduit (RMC), intermediate metal conduit (IMC), rigid polyvinyl chloride conduit (PVC), reinforced thermosetting resin conduit (RTRC), electrical metallic tubing (EMT), or cable armor. Grounding electrode conductors smaller than 6 AWG shall be protected in RMC, IMC, PVC, RTRC, EMT, or cable armor

 

[Dennis]

I don't see either as needing protection if not exposed to damage. If the copper is strapped to the building what harm can come of it. We never have had to protect #6 to the rod.

 

[north star]

= = =



Dennis, the [ potential ] damage could come from weedeating or

landscaping activities......Landscaping such as when Springtime

rolls around and the owners want a tilled flower bed.....That

tiller could go a tad stray and nick / damage / cut the gec.

Weedeaters with those metal blades attached to the weedeater

head.

+ + +

 

[TJacobs]

How about your dog or other animal doing damage?

 

[ICE]

A 6 AWG grounding electrode conductor that is free from exposure to physical damage shall be permitted to be run along the surface of the building construction without metal covering or protection if it is securely fastened to the construction

What about the last 12" the stretches from the building to the rod? Every now and then I come across an electrician that says, "It is a #6 secured to the building so I don't have to protect it". I ask them to picture a housewife with a shovel.

 

[jwelectric]

I always ask the inspector to show me the dog or other animal, the wife with a shovel, the landscapers, weedeater or what ever else the inspector can think of. If it aint there when they are then they aint inspecting they are expecting which is not allowed.

Maybe we should change their titles to electrical expectors instead of electrical inspectors.

Now that we have changed their title I have a question for the expectors. Mr. Expector what is you opinion of wall street? Should I invest today or wait till tomorrow?

 

[jwelectric]

Sorry but I can't help but ask a question, are some of these people getting paid or what?

 

[ICE]

I always ask the inspector to show me the dog or other animal, the wife with a shovel, the landscapers, weedeater or what ever else the inspector can think of. If it aint there when they are then they aint inspecting they are expecting which is not allowed.

The entire electrical code is based on expectations.

You follow the code or you can expect a dire outcome.

Little of what the code addresses will happen immediately and some will never happen at all.

With no expectation, why bother.

It's kinda like sports...sometimes you win..sometimes you lose..sometimes you get rained out..but you suit up for all of them.

 

[ICE]

Sorry but I can't help but ask a question, are some of these people getting paid or what?Maybe we should change their titles to electrical expectors instead of electrical inspectors.

Now that we have changed their title I have a question for the expectors. Mr. Expector what is you opinion of wall street? Should I invest today or wait till tomorrow?

Why be that way?

You lose respect when you place yourself on high.

Lose the attitude.

You pollute the forum.

Fewer people participate when there is a jerk wad loose.

 

[gfretwell]

The expectation of physical damage is always the inspector or the AHJs call. It varies widely about what different jurisdictions consider "exposed to damage" and whether it is "severe" or not. Neither are really defined in Article 100.

Maybe it is based more on EXperience than EXpectation. Guys who see lots of damaged EGCs are more likely to want more protection.

 

[jwelectric]

Why be that way? You lose respect when you place yourself on high.

EXcuse me? Be what way? Disagreeing with an inspector or wondering how one got to be an inspector is putting me on high????????????? No, not at all. It is a serious question like it or not. Maybe if we stop and do some serious thinking about what some inspectors are saying we might just find that a lot inject opinion into their jobs. They sure do on these discussion forums. Are they the same as what you are saying about me?

I too am an electrical inspector as well as a certified instructor of electrical inspectors.

As an inspector I look at the installation to the letter of the code, which in my case is the NEC with amendments, and leave my opinion completely out of the job.

In the class room I teach to inspect by the code not opinion. Never inspect a job with a “what if” thought that comes to your mind.

Case in point is this thread. I am surprised that someone didn’t come out with, “what if we have an earth quake” or “what if the moon goes flying out into space”

Maybe we should ask our self this question, “what if the Maya calendar expires?”

The code, both NEC and ICC, says routed close to the building no other protection required. All this other stuff is nothing more than what if. If installed by the letter of the code, I personally could care less what anyone else thinks about the installation including a house wife with a shovel, a stray dog, the kids on their toys, a weed eater or anything else.

The power company installs a lateral to my home which is outside the scope of any inspector then the man comes to install a new line to my septic system.

What if he digs through those wires that are underground? Maybe they should have been installed in a lead lined concrete duck with walls three feet thick.

I can’t help but wonder “what if” every inspector in the world today inspected by their adopted codes. Would there be any need for the internet?

 

[ICE]

I can’t help but wonder “what if” every inspector in the world today inspected by their adopted codes. Would there be any need for the internet?

I'm not so sure that Al Gore invented the Internet only for electrical inspectors.

 

[ICE]

In the class room I teach to inspect by the code not opinion. Never inspect a job with a “what if” thought that comes to your mind.

If you can teach them not to think, can you can teach them what not to think?

 

[ICE]

EXcuse me? Be what way? Case in point is this thread. I am surprised that someone didn’t come out with, “what if we have an earth quake” or “what if the moon goes flying out into space”

Maybe we should ask our self this question, “what if the Maya calendar expires?”

The answer to your question is right there in front of you.

 

[ICE]

I personally could care less what anyone else thinks

Obviously I am too wrong to ever be right...better that I wait to hear from you from now on.

 

[ICE]

Case in point is this thread. I am surprised that someone didn’t come out with, “what if we have an earth quake” or “what if the moon goes flying out into space”

Maybe we should ask our self this question, “what if the Maya calendar expires?”

The power company installs a lateral to my home which is outside the scope of any inspector then the man comes to install a new line to my septic system.

What if he digs through those wires that are underground? Maybe they should have been installed in a lead lined concrete duck with walls three feet thick.

You out did Goofy.

 

[jwelectric]

I'm not so sure that Al Gore invented the Internet only for electrical inspectors.

Yes sir he did, he got on the TV and said that the earth was getting real hot so he invented the internet just for electrical inspectors so they could turn down all those kilowatts.

If you can teach them not to think, can you can teach them what not to think?

My major problem is finding one who knows how to think. This is also true for electricians.

The answer to your question is right there in front of you.

My mommy always said I had a problem sitting still. I have moved from where I was so it is no longer in front of me.

Obviously I am too wrong to ever be right...better that I wait to hear from you from now on.

Well you aren’t the only one, ever hear of E F Hutton?

Thank you for those kind words (said as I take my bow)

 

[ICE]

My major problem is finding one who knows how to think. This is also true for electricians.

Perhaps I have you figured wrong and it's not really a labor of love.

 

[jwelectric]

Perhaps I have you figured wrong and it's not really a labor of love.

1. la•bor

/ˈlābər/

Noun

Work, esp. hard physical work: "manual labor".

Verb

Work hard; make great effort.

I never break a sweat for any reason. This has caused me problems in the past when I would bring a hand held fan to the sauna.

I hate it when I have to breathe hard. For this reason I do not labor.

I watch my heart rate. I allow no more than 84 beats per minute. NO! No labor.

You are correct when you say you had me figured wrong if you was figuring any labor in the equation. It sure wouldn’t have been pretty if I had been born a woman cause there is no labor allowed in my little world therefore I would not have had any heirs.

 

[Dennis]

= = =

Dennis, the [ potential ] damage could come from weedeating or

landscaping activities......Landscaping such as when Springtime

rolls around and the owners want a tilled flower bed.....That

tiller could go a tad stray and nick / damage / cut the gec.

Weedeaters with those metal blades attached to the weedeater

head.

+ + +

I have seen thousands of bare grounding electrode conductor's to the ground rod and I have never seen one destroyed from a week eater. Put it in PVC and it will do nothing to protect the wire if the weedeater is the issue.

 

[jwelectric]

Dennis, on a side note what do you think the value of ground rods are in the first place?

I know this get thrown around a lot and being you sit in a chair that it is discussed quite often what is your opinion of their value as an electrode.