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Gender Neutral Restrooms

A

aston414

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Joined
Mar 14, 2019
Messages
2
Location
Detroit, MI
Lately there has been a big shift toward gender-neutrality in regards to restroom design, but building codes thus far (for the most part), have only incorporated gender neutral signage requirements, and many codes still have requirements for separate toilet facilities for individual sexes. Is anyone aware of precedents for truly gender neutral restroom designs (similar to what has been proposed by Joel Sanders "Stalled" project)? I am beginning to work on a new office/higher-education building, and the client has expressed a desire for gender neutral restrooms. However, the Michigan Building Code/Michigan Plumbing Code outlines that separate facilities must be provided for each sex (2015 MPC, 403.2.). If anyone is aware of similar installations, specifically in Michigan, please share. I would like to know if there have been any installations that have been successfully installed through the Alternative Methods provisions in the code.
 
California passed bill AB1732 which took effect on March 1, 2017,
All new/remodeled/altered single user restrooms in businesses, government buildings and places of public accommodation shall be available to everyone and labeled as All Gender. Multi user restrooms are still labeled as men and women restrooms.
 
MichaelM said:
California passed bill AB1732 which took effect on March 1, 2017,
All new/remodeled/altered single user restrooms in businesses, government buildings and places of public accommodation shall be available to everyone and labeled as All Gender. Multi user restrooms are still labeled as men and women restrooms.
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Thanks for the information. Yeah, specifically I'm looking at multi-user restrooms. It's still a very new idea so I'm curious to know if there are actual installations of gender-neutral multi-user restrooms.
 
I have no experience with Michigan.
But in that instance we would typically provide multi user mens and womens toilet rooms with a separate single occupancy gender neutral / family restroom.

No no such thing as Gender Neutral multi occupancy restrooms. kinky
 
We have permitted multiple single user gender neutral restrooms in place of gang gender assigned restrooms, but not any gender neutral gang restrooms.
 
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Forget the social crap going on out there. The code language would be "unisex" or "single user". Design and build the facilities as required by the code, add a couple of "single user" restrooms if your client wants to provide something in addition to the code requirements. As for who uses what facility based on what they feel or think about themselves is not a code issue it is a social issue. The codes are not there to address social issues.

2018 IBC
[A] 101.3 Intent.
The purpose of this code is to establish the minimum requirements to provide a reasonable level of safety, public health and general welfare through structural strength, means of egress facilities, stability, sanitation, adequate light and ventilation, energy conservation, and safety to life and property from fire, explosion and other hazards, and to provide a reasonable level of safety to fire fighters and emergency responders during emergency operations.
 
Back off mt! The folks on this forum are experienced enough to understand where this is coming from (ACLU?).
Though not yet in the code it should be seen as a legally acceptable alternate methods and means.
 
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I am doing a review on this matter too. The city of Portland Oregon and Edmond WA have allowed this concept in schools. Full height walls and doors are required for each water closet. Each water closet has to have its own ventilation. The door has to have an indicator if in use. Basically each water closet is separated from each other.
 
Tolerance does not mean acceptance. I can choose to tolerate someone without accepting what they believe or how they behave.
Everybody is entitled to their own opinions. However they are not entitled to their own facts
As pointed out in the article sex and gender are not interchangeable terms for humans. The definition of gender is dynamic (constantly changing) but is based on self prsentation

Self presentation is how people present themselves in order to control or shape how others view them. self presentation normally involves expressing oneself and behaving in ways that create a desired impression.


Are sex and gender interchangeable terms? In classical biology, both are sometimes but not always used on an equal basis for some groups of animals. However, for our own species the Homo sapiens, they are not

There is no generally accepted definition of gender, because the concept itself is not static but dynamic [20]. According to Weed [21] the meaning of gender depends on who uses the word, in what context, and for what ends. A few examples of definitions as used in medicine or in the humanities, in particular in sociology are:

  • • Gender: the behavioural, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex (Merriam-Webster Medical dictionary)
  • • Gender: is a constitutive element of social relationships based upon perceived differences between the sexes and gender is a primary way of signifying relationships of power (historian Joan Wallach Scott [22]).
  • • Gender: is the range of characteristics pertaining to, and differentiating between masculinity and femininity. Depending on the context, these characteristics may include biological sex (i.e. the state of being male, female or an intersex variation which may complicate sex assignment), sex-based social structures (including gender roles and other social roles), or gender identity [23]).
  • • Since 2011, the FDA [24] started using sex as the biological classification and gender as a person's self-presentation as male or female, or how a person is responded to by social institutions based on the individual's gender presentation.
  • • To my knowledge, no specific definition of gender emerged from basic studies in animal physiology and development.
These definitions illustrate that a triplet of basic elements is taken into account, namely biological sex, psychological gender, and social gender role. Gender is wider than sex. To date gender is mainly used in a human sociological context, with a considerable input from feminist theory and with little reference to basic principles of fundamental biology

With respect to Jeff and this forum I believe I have said enough on this non-building code subject and will not comment any further


 
Speak directly to the AHJ and see if they are interested in accepting your proposal.

The code requires a minimum number of washrooms for the health of building occupants. As long as the minimum number of washrooms are provided, how they are provided is completely irrelevant to me. That is a business decision that the government and codes are, at best, ill equipped to dictate to each individual business given the spectrum of needs for each different business. I'm all for the free market devising how to allocate their washrooms, provided the minimum number and accessibility are met.

Whether or not there are 2 or more genders is completely irrelevant to me. I have more important things on my mind than how other people are living their life where it does not negatively affect anyone else.
 
aston414 said:
Thanks for the information. Yeah, specifically I'm looking at multi-user restrooms. It's still a very new idea so I'm curious to know if there are actual installations of gender-neutral multi-user restrooms.
Click to expand...
In todays society, in the US, you will not see gender-neutral multi-user restrooms, in the codes.
Europe, maybe, unlikely.
 
Not yet, but it is coming Mark. Think amusement Parks, stadiums, Las Vegas, etc.
Granted the military does not take kindly to this as of yesterday's DOJ amicas brief.
 
This is a non-issue. The code is clear, "separate facilities shall be provided for each sex." Not separate fixtures, separate "facilities." (2012 IPC Section 403.2)

GPE
 
ADAguy said:
Not yet, but it is coming Mark. Think amusement Parks, stadiums, Las Vegas, etc.
Granted the military does not take kindly to this as of yesterday's DOJ amicas brief.
Click to expand...

I do not believe even then you will have multi occupancy gender neutral rooms with traditional toilet partitions. You will have multi occupancy rooms that have individual rooms that are completely private with toilets in some and urinals in others. We have these now in many places. The signage on the doors say: "sit", "stand" or if a urinal and toilet are in one it says "sit/stand". then there are common sink areas for everyone to enjoy.
 
I believe there are already proposals to require full height partitions for "shy bladder" people and maybe there will be a tie in with this "issue"...
 
georgia plans exam said:
This is a non-issue. The code is clear, "separate facilities shall be provided for each sex." Not separate fixtures, separate "facilities." (2012 IPC Section 403.2)

GPE
Click to expand...

This is one of the advantages to a performance based code. I can look at the objective of the code that states that the provision is to ensure that there are sufficient facilities for the occupant load. Separate or together. Why do I care? As long as the safety of the occupants is met I don't. Otherwise, I'm just exercising my personal opinion.

Our supreme court has made it clear that code enforcement must use discretion. We are not "code enforcement robots".

JPohling said:
I do not believe even then you will have multi occupancy gender neutral rooms with traditional toilet partitions. You will have multi occupancy rooms that have individual rooms that are completely private with toilets in some and urinals in others. We have these now in many places. The signage on the doors say: "sit", "stand" or if a urinal and toilet are in one it says "sit/stand". then there are common sink areas for everyone to enjoy.
Click to expand...

I would agree the code likely will not mandate unisex washrooms in the near future. However, I can see it removing the requirement for "separate". In my mind, there is little difference between having toilet rooms and stalls, but I do think it will be a likely stepping stone to transition into unisex washrooms.

The question the AHJ needs to ask themselves is what is the risk here? Is someone more likely to get hurt or killed in a unisex washroom compared to a sexed washroom? People are quick to bring up the potential for sexual assault, but if these people are willing to violate the law in this manner, there is little stopping them from entering into the opposing sex's washroom now.
 
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New to the 2021 International Plumbing Code. Pay close attention to exception 6.

403.2 Separate facilities. Where plumbing fixtures are required, separate facilities shall be provided for each sex.

Exceptions:

1. Separate facilities shall not be required for dwelling units and sleeping units.
2. Separate facilities shall not be required in structures or tenant spaces with a total occupant load, including both employees and customers, of 15 or fewer.
3. Separate facilities shall not be required in mercantile occupancies in which the maximum occupant load is 100 or fewer.
4. Separate facilities shall not be required in business occupancies in which the maximum occupant load is 25 or fewer.
5. Separate facilities shall not be required to be designated by sex where single-user toilets rooms are provided in accordance with Section 403.1.2.
6. Separate facilities shall not be required where rooms having both water closets and lavatory fixtures are designed for use by both sexes and privacy for water closets are installed in accordance with Section 405.3.4. Urinals shall be located in an area visually separated from the remainder of the facility or each urinal that is provided shall be located in a stall.
 
tmurray said "Separate or together. Why do I care?"
Why? Because the code (2012) clearly states that they be separate. No personal opinion is expressed here. If anyone here wants to go to another country and poop in a communal pit, it is nothing to me, but our code prohibits it, at least, for now. When the code changes, I will enforce that change. I just won't let my 14 year old daughter use public restrooms.

GPE
 
rgrace said:
New to the 2021 International Plumbing Code. Pay close attention to exception 6.

403.2 Separate facilities. Where plumbing fixtures are required, separate facilities shall be provided for each sex.

Exceptions:

1. Separate facilities shall not be required for dwelling units and sleeping units.
2. Separate facilities shall not be required in structures or tenant spaces with a total occupant load, including both employees and customers, of 15 or fewer.
3. Separate facilities shall not be required in mercantile occupancies in which the maximum occupant load is 100 or fewer.
4. Separate facilities shall not be required in business occupancies in which the maximum occupant load is 25 or fewer.
5. Separate facilities shall not be required to be designated by sex where single-user toilets rooms are provided in accordance with Section 403.1.2.
6. Separate facilities shall not be required where rooms having both water closets and lavatory fixtures are designed for use by both sexes and privacy for water closets are installed in accordance with Section 405.3.4. Urinals shall be located in an area visually separated from the remainder of the facility or each urinal that is provided shall be located in a stall.
Click to expand...

Correct, the installation I was describing is available to all sexes, the toilets and urinals are completely private.
 
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