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Grounding/Bonding and gas piping systems.

P

princeofpen

Member
Joined
Aug 11, 2011
Messages
67
Clarification needed please of you electrical inspectors.

During an inspection I found the grounding conductor leaving the service that passes through a connection to a gas meter and then to ground. I see this as a violation of NEC 08 250.52 (B) (1) in that the gas piping is being used as a portion of the grounding system. Sparky response is that it has to grounded, mine as it has to be bonded as per 250.104(B) and in this case that bond is already at the equipment likely to energize the piping (furnace). Although 250.104 does permit attachment of the gas piping to the grounding conductor using the same grounding size as the circuit likely to energize the piping, direct "through" attachment of the building ground without a jumper would not be permitted in my opinion.

Thoughts please on this? Thanks as well

POP
 
princeofpen said:
Clarification needed please of you electrical inspectors.During an inspection I found the grounding conductor leaving the service that passes through a connection to a gas meter and then to ground. I see this as a violation of NEC 08 250.52 (B) (1) in that the gas piping is being used as a portion of the grounding system. Sparky response is that it has to grounded, mine as it has to be bonded as per 250.104(B) and in this case that bond is already at the equipment likely to energize the piping (furnace). Although 250.104 does permit attachment of the gas piping to the grounding conductor using the same grounding size as the circuit likely to energize the piping, direct "through" attachment of the building ground without a jumper would not be permitted in my opinion.

Thoughts please on this? Thanks as well

POP
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The gas line is required to be bonded on the outlet side of the meter. The gas cock on the inlet side is a dielectric fitting that would isolate the gas main from being used as an electrode.
 
Gas piping is not necessarily required to be attached to the electrode. It can be connected via the equipment grounding conductor that is attached to the piping system such as a gas furnace. However if there is csst piping then bonding is necessary with a conductor sized #6 or larger but as long as it is attached on the load side of the gas meter-- assuming the meter is at the house --- then as stated earlier the dielectric fitting at the meter will protect the pipe in the ground from being an electrode.
 
I may have used the wrong term. The connection I notated was not to the meter but rather to the building side of the piping. The grounding conductor went from the service equip, connected to the building side piping, and then to ground.

Am I correct in that although the piping is required to be bonded that does not mean the building grounding conductor can/should pass through gas piping but rather a separate bonding conductor may connect the gas piping to the grounding conductor or electrode.

Am I splitting hairs here?

Note: Not a CSST piping system , steel piping underground from meter to underslab in the building.
 
The gas pipe is allowed to be bonded to one of these four places; service equipment enclosure, the grounded conductor at the service, the grounding electrode conductor where of sufficient size, or to the one or more grounding electrodes used.

What you describe sounds like the contractor is in compliance with one of these four places. In order for it to be in violation of 250.52(B) the conductor would have to land on the supply side of the gas meter.
 
If the grounding conductor passes through by connection to either end of the gas piping system, that piping "system" is being used as part of the grounding electrode. If it's to be bonded it should be bonded by a connection sized by what electrical circuit type likely to energize it.

Sorry I can't provide a drawing in this case but imagine the line drawing of grounding conductor leaves panel,passes through a connection at a metal gas pipe (south of meter) and onward to grounding electrode. How is this not being a electrode pipe when it (the gas pipe) goes underground and into the building.
 
princeofpen said:
If the grounding conductor passes through by connection to either end of the gas piping system, that piping "system" is being used as part of the grounding electrode. If it's to be bonded it should be bonded by a connection sized by what electrical circuit type likely to energize it. Sorry I can't provide a drawing in this case but imagine the line drawing of grounding conductor leaves panel,passes through a connection at a metal gas pipe (south of meter) and onward to grounding electrode. How is this not being a electrode pipe when it (the gas pipe) goes underground and into the building.
Click to expand...
What is "south of meter" ?

A meter has an inlet and outlet. If it is a steel supply from the service provider, as it exits the ground it will have a gas cock that is dielectric in design, then the pressure regulator continuing to the entrance of the meter then the exit of the meter, from this point on into the structure is where the bonding takes place.
 
princeofpen said:
How is this not being a electrode pipe when it (the gas pipe) goes underground and into the building.
Click to expand...
As I understand this, the connection to the gas pipe is on the supply side of the meter....between the meter and the building....after the connection to the gas pipe, the gas pipe goes underground and daylights somewhere in the building.

Everywhere a gas pipe enters or exits the Earth, a dielectric union is required. That would isolate the section of buried pipe and in your situation, the pipe within the building would not be bonded by the connection.

If the dielectric unions are missing the gas pipe that is buried is now bonded. The pipe will experience minute current flow and moisture which rots the steel.

The gas pipe under a slab on grade presents another set of issues.
 
I don't believe I have ever bonded a gas piping system thru the grounding electrode conductor unless there was csst involved and then I used a separate bonding conductor. The equipment grounding conductor from the circuit that feeds the gas furnace is sufficient to bond the pipe-- if there is no electrical equipment involved with the gas system then it must be bonded and sized to 250.66 but it does not get connected to the line side of the meter.

In our state, the meter is adjacent to the building foundation and once it connects to the meter it does not go underground unless there is no basement and the house is on a slab
 
This is the latest set of installation instructions:

http://www.tracpipe.com/Customer-Content/WWW/CMS/files/FlexGasPipe_DesignGuide_Jan_2014-1.pdf
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This is where the installation has problems:

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Almost always, generic steel plates are used with nowhere near the area of coverage that's required. Especially during remodel work. It's both sides of walls. Don't forget the exterior side of exterior walls. That's right, you have to bust stucco. Makes you think twice about using this stuff.

Here's a bit of odd instruction:

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It comes as no surprise that there are torque specs. What is noteworthy is the actual specs. Having never seen a torque wrench with a crows foot being used, I am pretty sure the fittings are loose per the chart. A 2" fitting has a range of 250# to 300#. I have not seen torque specs. that were a large range but I suppose when it gets to the Shuttle lug nut territory, that makes sense.

Plumbers are reluctant to apply 75# torque to a 1" fitting. It will take three plumbers.....two on the wrenches and one shouting PULL....PULL

This might be the answer to the dilemma. This absurdity is found at the instruction for a different fitting:

Click to expand...
The pipe can be used pretty much anywhere....even corrosive environments.

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A little more installation instruction on that silicone tape would be helpful.

I always get the second paragraph instruction wrong. For me it is 8'...not 6'. Oh well installers get so much wrong that it's no foul if I make a mistake too.
 
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To princeofpen's original question it sounds like the electrician is simply bonding the gas piping because of CSST and I do not think there is an issue with this. It actually sounds like someone took the time to plan something in that the gas pipe and service enter the building with in close proximity to each other.
 
I believe what POP is getting at is 250.52 applies to underground piping and gas piping as such "shall not be used as grounding electrode."

2011 NEC 250.104(b) Informational Note No. 2: Additionalinformation for gas

piping systems can be found inSection 7.13 of NFPA 54-

2009, National Fuel Gas Code







7.13.1 Each aboveground portion of a

gas piping system that is likely to

become energized shall be electrically

continuous and bonded to an effective

ground-fault current path. Gas piping

shall be considered to be bonded

when it is connected to appliances

that are connected to the appliance

grounding conductor of the circuit

supplying that appliance. CSST gas

piping systems shall be bonded to the

electrical service grounding electrode

system at the point where the gas service

enters the building. The bonding

jumper shall not be smaller than 6

AWG copper wire.

And from POP explanation in post #5 (wish he could have posted a drawing) the piping from the meter (assuming it's on the exterior) should not enter the foundation walls below grade.

.











 
E3609.7 Bonding other metal piping. Where installed in or attached to a building or structure, metal piping systems,**** including gas piping****, capable of becoming energized shall be bonded to the service equipment enclosure, the grounded conductor at the service,***** the grounding electrode conductor***** where of sufficient size, or to the one or more grounding electrodes used.
 
I'm interested in how other PA inspectors feel about inspections on propane. Since PA outlawed us to preform any inspections on propane installation can we make them do bonding, strike plates, or anything else that code or the manufactures instruction requires when there are inspections being preformed in the building?
 
My house is 40+ years old and has a natural gas hot water heater, stove, and furnace. There are copper pipes running through the attic to connect the furnace to the other two appliances and our a/c repair man recently told us it is unsafe to have copper pipes when using natural gas, based on the fact that additives in the gas will cause the inside of the copper pipe to corrode and flake off. Is this accurate and should I have the pipes replaced, or is he just trying to sell me something I really don't need? Please help!
 
penneyeugene said:
My house is 40+ years old and has a natural gas hot water heater, stove, and furnace. There are copper pipes running through the attic to connect the furnace to the other two appliances and our a/c repair man recently told us it is unsafe to have copper pipes when using natural gas, based on the fact that additives in the gas will cause the inside of the copper pipe to corrode and flake off. Is this accurate and should I have the pipes replaced, or is he just trying to sell me something I really don't need? Please help!
Click to expand...
Welcome!!!!

How are things down there???? Sunny

Do your neighbors have copper piping??
 
Call your gas supplier and talk to someone that knows cooper pipe and ask the question also
 
cda said:
Call your gas supplier and talk to someone that knows cooper pipe and ask the question also
Click to expand...
Now the gas company may know something about Copper Pipe but I doubt they know anything about Cooper Pipe....lol...sorry I could not resist.:twisted:
 
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