Handrail locations?

[tbz]

Old pre-existing entryway

We are installing (2) handrails were I noted in the picture with the black lines.

The doors are 36" each thus the handrails will be 70" between

My question becomes one of best flow and use of this entry and exit way.

If we put one handrail in the middle and then putting a handrail to each side really closes down the walking paths from the two side stairs because placing the handrails within 36" of each other is tight and then the walking in to when descending down the side stairs if we move the side handrails outward anymore than in line with the door jambs.

What do you all think?

 

[steveray]

What is driving the installation of the handrails? I agree with your assesment....Can you just put one in the center?

 

[Francis Vineyard]

Agree a single handrail in the middle could comply;

3404.1 General. Except as provided by :Next('./icod_ibc_2009f2cc_34_par004.htm')'>Section 3401.4 or this section, alterations to any building or structure shall comply with the requirements of the code for new construction. Alterations shall be such that the existing building or structure is no less complying with the provisions of this code than the existing building or structure was prior to the alteration.

Exceptions:

1. An existing stairway shall not be required to comply with the requirements of :Next('./icod_ibc_2009f2cc_10_par091.htm')'>Section 1009 where the existing space and construction does not allow a reduction in pitch or slope.

2. Handrails otherwise required to comply with :Next('./icod_ibc_2009f2cc_10_par112.htm')'>Section 1009.12 shall not be required to comply with the requirements of :Next('./icod_ibc_2009f2cc_10_par154.htm')'>Section 1012.6 regarding full extension of the handrails where such extensions would be hazardous due to plan configuration.

1012.9 Intermediate handrails. Stairways shall have intermediate handrails located in such a manner that all portions of the stairway width required for egress capacity are within 30 inches (762 mm) of a handrail. On monumental stairs, handrails shall be located along the most direct path of egress travel.

[TD=bgcolor: #e9e9e9]

In order to always be available to the user of the stairway, the maximum distance to a handrail from within the required width must not exceed 30 inches (762 mm). People tend to walk adjacent to handrails, and if intermediate handrails are not provided for very wide stairways, the center portion of such stairways will normally receive limited use. More importantly, in emergencies, the center portions of wide stairways with handrails would be used more aptly to speed up egress travel rather than delay it by overcrowding at the sides with the handrails. This would especially be true under panic conditions. Without the requirement for intermediate handrails, the use of wide interior stairways could become particularly hazardous. The distance to the handrail applies to the "required width" of the stairway. If a stairway is greater than 60 inches (1524 mm) in width, but only 60 inches (1524 mm) are required based on occupant load (see :Next('./icod_ibc_2009f2cc_10_par026.htm')'>Section 1005.1 ), intermediate handrails are not required. Adequate safety is provided since every user is within 30 inches (762 mm) of a handrail. The criteria for monumental stairways deal with the very wide stairway in relation to the required width. While handrails on both sides of the stairway may be sufficient to accommodate the required width, the handrails may not be near the stream of traffic or even apparent to the user. In this case, the handrails are to be placed in a location more reflective of the egress path (see Figure 1012.9 for handrail locations for monumental stairs).

[TR] [TD]

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For SI: 1 inch = 25.4 mm. Figure 1012.9 HANDRAILS FOR MONUMENTAL STAIRS

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http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/icod/ibc/2009f2cc/icod_ibc_2009f2cc_10_sec012.htm

 

[tbz]

They had some falls coming down from the side stairs and the front door, so they are trying to provide for both purposes.

Hence they just don't want one handrail down the middle because that really doesn't serve the side stairways

At the same time, (3) handrails become a movement problem with flow,

(2) handrails work with flow and spacing, it is just the 60" that comes in to question.

And as you can see egress flow is from 3 directions

 

[north star]

= | = | =

Safety of the occupants using them or flow of

the occupants, ...which is the most restrictive

application ?..........I'm thinking that the safety

of the occupants would be the most restrictive.

= | = | =

 

[mark handler]

 

[tbz]

= | = | =Safety of the occupants using them or flow of

the occupants, ...which is the most restrictive

application ?..........I'm thinking that the safety

of the occupants would be the most restrictive.

= | = | =

So Northstar are you saying the flow of movement is not an equal part of the safety concern?

Placement for use is all part of flow for use and if the handrails become a walking obstruction for users is that not a safety concern also?

 

[tbz]

If we were talking about just the 2 entry doors I could accept your post Mark, but your pic does not take in to concern the (2) stairways with the wrapping of the stair flight to the monumental stair.

So if you can please comment more on your posting.

 

[tbz]

What we have found is that on short landing intersections if you have handrails placed tightly together you run in to major issues with the entrants walking in to each other and the handrails if we installed (3) handrails across the door entry area.

We have found that if you don't have at least 48 inches in width you end up with people standing sideways on the steps to let others pass.

So though 1 handrail down the center would serve the side door entry flow well for entry exit to the lower level, it does not serve the flow of the side staircases for people ascending up and down the internal levels.

This to me would be an easy call if you had one or the other, but with both, and this site being 100 plus years old to boot, makes this to me what best serves both conditions the best without producing a worse condition for one or the other, or just improving one condition and not the other.

 

[mark handler]

I provided the figure because yours does not display on my screens

I would install per your original photo

I do not feel it impeded s the flow, to the contrary it can enhance the desired flow.

I would also modify the side stair handrails to be more compliant

 

[north star]

~ + ~ + ~

tbz,

No, I am not saying that the flow of occupants is not

an equal part of the safety concerns, however, with

there already being documented falls from the side

stairs, ...IMO, those would be the primary concern,

"IF" I had to choose one over the other for a

higher level of safety.

To be able to incorporate handrails to accommodate

the side stair occupants AND the flow of the main

entrance would be the optimal scenario......But "IF"

you are asking for one over the other, then I vote

for the side stair rails first !

You have a documented problem vs. a potential

problem.

~ * ~ * ~

 

[steveray]

To really beat it down...we would need to know the required egress width...per FV & MH posts....the 30" distance from the handrail is based on required width, not provided.....But I still say 2 should do it....

 

[tbz]

Thank you everyone for the comments and explanations, the current plan best serves the layout of the pre-existing without modification.

Tom