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Historic Building - Former Church No Bathrooms

D

Dominic

SAWHORSE
Joined
Jun 20, 2017
Messages
51
Location
Albany
A building owner approached me to design an accessble toilet room in a 1850's former church. Currently used now for social gatherings, ie, small concerts, easter bunny, plays, etc...

The problem I am having is the builing never had any toilet rooms. And the way the building was designed I can only get one fully acceeible toilet room to fit in the entry (narthex).

My position now is one toilet room is better than none. What are peoples thoughts?
 
Church = assembly occupancy. No code minimum plumbing fixture count likely required in the 1850s.
Proposed uses: concerts, plays, etc. = also assembly occupancies, right?
Are the furnishings changing in a way that increases occupant loads?
If the proposed uses are not considered a change in occupancy, and if there is no change in the number of occupants in the church, then I don't see how an increase in plumbing fixtures can be required by code. Your one toilet room would be considered a voluntary improvement.
"One is better than none" should be an acceptable approach.
 
No change in ocuppancy and the number of occupants. Seating (pews) and stage (alter) are remaining as is.

Thank you for your response.
 
The proposed work, IMHO, would be classified as a Level II Alteration (NY-EBC Ch. 8). Per 809.1, additional toilet fixtures would only be required where the OL of the story is increased by more than 20%; given you would not be increasing occupants (perhaps even decreasing via displacement), you can apply this section to demonstrate the "one is better than none" arguement as code supported.

NY EBC 809.1 Minimum Fixtures​

Where the occupant load of the story is increased by more than 20 percent, plumbing fixtures for the story shall be provided in quantities specified in the Plumbing Code of New York State based on the increased occupant load.
 
classicT said:
The proposed work, IMHO, would be classified as a Level II Alteration (NY-EBC Ch. 8). Per 809.1, additional toilet fixtures would only be required where the OL of the story is increased by more than 20%; given you would not be increasing occupants (perhaps even decreasing via displacement), you can apply this section to demonstrate the "one is better than none" arguement as code supported.

NY EBC 809.1 Minimum Fixtures​

Where the occupant load of the story is increased by more than 20 percent, plumbing fixtures for the story shall be provided in quantities specified in the Plumbing Code of New York State based on the increased occupant load.
Click to expand...
Thank you. Your logic appears to be spot on.
 
Agreed, I'm just wondering where people have been doing their business for these "social gatherings, ie, small concerts" and would an existing outhouse qualify as a toilet room?
 
@ ~ @

As part of the social gatherings, plays, other, can the party
hosting the event rent some portable toilets and hand
washing stations, ...to also include the ADA compliant
portable toilets & hand washing stations ?

Portable is better than nothing...

@ ~ @
 
JPohling said:
I see a change in occupancy from a A3 to an A1. Change in use would trigger restroom requirements
Click to expand...
J, I see what you may be thinking. I had initially taken the OP as meaning that the use was not changing, and that the "former church" was still operating as a church via social gatherings, Easter bunny, plays, etc. - all typical to a church.
Dominic said:
A building owner approached me to design an accessble toilet room in a 1850's former church. Currently used now for social gatherings, ie, small concerts, easter bunny, plays, etc...
Click to expand...
So, to the OP... I guess we need a bit of clarification. Is this still a church, or has something changed? Is there a new ownership or some type of change that will be affecting what goes on in this building?

If so, as J indicated, this may be a change of use/occupancy. If that is the case, then you must comply with the following:

NY EBC 1009.1 Increased Demand​

Where the occupancy of an existing building or part of an existing building is changed such that the new occupancy is subject to increased or different plumbing fixture requirements or to increased water supply requirements in accordance with the Plumbing Code of New York State, the new occupancy shall comply with the intent of the respective Plumbing Code of New York State provisions.
 
north star said:
@ ~ @

As part of the social gatherings, plays, other, can the party
hosting the event rent some portable toilets and hand
washing stations, ...to also include the ADA compliant
portable toilets & hand washing stations ?

Portable is better than nothing...

@ ~ @
Click to expand...
Churches are exempt from ADA BTW.....
 
Really don't want to bring up the subject of religion here but was just wondering how do you decide if it is a place of worship. You could worship anything.
 
PLACE OF RELIGIOUS WORSHIP. See “Religious worship, place of.”

[BG] RELIGIOUS WORSHIP, PLACE OF. A building or portion thereof intended for the performance of religious services.

Websters 1828 dictionary
4. Any system of faith and worship. In this sense, religion comprehends the belief and worship of pagans and Mohammedans, as well as of christians; any religion consisting in the belief of a superior power or powers governing the world, and in the worship of such power or powers. Thus we speak of the religion of the Turks, of the Hindoos, of the Indians, etc. as well as of the christian religion We speak of false religion as well as of true religion
Rick18071 said:
You could worship anything.
Click to expand...
Yes, you can, and people do.
 
classicT said:
Perhaps exempt from ADA, but they are not exempted from the accessibility provisions found in the IBC and by reference, the A117.1 standard.

See NY BC (2018 IBC) Section 1103.
Click to expand...
Correct....And post #3 said no change of occupancy...

Dominic said:
No change in ocuppancy and the number of occupants. Seating (pews) and stage (alter) are remaining as is.
Click to expand...
 
The events listed happen in many churches all the time. That's what makes it so difficult. Serving (even if byob) alcohol (beyond communion) would be where I drew a line.
 
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