Homeowner trying to get his house condemned because he says he’s living over a sinkhole

[jar546]

Give me that report in my jurisdiction and we will post the property the next day.
Who else would act on that report or at the very least require 2 engineers to sign off?

 

[classicT]

I wouldn't issue any order related to condemning the property, but if I had a means by which to declare unsafe and order the occupant to vacate the premises, I would go that route.

Worth noting, the IRC does not have a provision similar to that of IBC Section 116 - Unsafe Structures and Equipment. It would likely be improper to reference IBC Sec. 116 for a SFD... so, unless there is some local ordinance, this AHJ may be responding correctly.

Jar, on what basis would you issue some type of order? Do you have a local ordinance or amendment that applies to SFD?

 

[north star]

$ ~ $

classicT, ...not sure if the IPMC, Section 102.9 will
apply or not......What is your view ?

$ ~ $

 

[mtlogcabin]

Those jurisdictions that do not adopt Chapter one is usually SOL.

2018 IEBC

SECTION 115
UNSAFE BUILDINGS AND EQUIPMENT

[A] 115.1 Conditions.
Buildings, structures or equipment that are or hereafter become unsafe, shall be taken down, removed or made safe as the code official deems necessary and as provided for in this code.

[A] 115.2 Record.
The code official shall cause a report to be filed on an unsafe condition. The report shall state the occupancy of the structure and the nature of the unsafe condition.

[A] 115.3 Notice.
If an unsafe condition is found, the code official shall serve on the owner, the owner’s authorized agent or person in control of the structure a written notice that describes the condition deemed unsafe and specifies the required repairs or improvements to be made to abate the unsafe condition, or that requires the unsafe building to be demolished within a stipulated time. Such notice shall require the person thus notified to declare immediately to the code official acceptance or rejection of the terms of the order.

[A] 115.4 Method of service.
Such notice shall be deemed properly served if a copy thereof is delivered to the owner or the owner’s authorized agent personally; sent by certified or registered mail addressed to the owner or the owner’s authorized agent at the last known address with the return receipt requested; or delivered in any other manner as prescribed by local law. If the certified or registered letter is returned showing that the letter was not delivered, a copy thereof shall be posted in a conspicuous place in or about the structure affected by such notice. Service of such notice in the foregoing manner on the owner’s authorized agent or on the person responsible for the structure shall constitute service of notice on the owner.

[A] 115.5 Restoration.
The building or equipment determined to be unsafe by the code official is permitted to be restored to a safe condition. To the extent that repairs, alterations, or additions are made or a change of occupancy occurs during the restoration of the building, such repairs, alterations, additions, or change of occupancy shall comply with the requirements of this code.

 

[classicT]

$ ~ $

classicT, ...not sure if the IPMC, Section 102.9 will
apply or not......What is your view ?

$ ~ $

If they adopt the IPMC it may... my local AHJ did not adopt the IPMC but wrote their own that somewhat follows Ch. 3. The council only wanted minimal provisions, so stuck with the bigger safety items that affect general health and welfare.

All that said, 102.9 is perhaps not as strong as Section 111.1.1

111.1.1 Unsafe Structures​

An unsafe structure is one that is found to be dangerous to the life, health, property or safety of the public or the occupants of the structure by not providing minimum safeguards to protect or warn occupants in the event of fire, or because such structure contains unsafe equipment or is so damaged, decayed, dilapidated, structurally unsafe or of such faulty construction or unstable foundation, that partial or complete collapse is possible.

 

[classicT]

Those jurisdictions that do not adopt Chapter one is usually SOL.

2018 IEBC

SECTION 115
UNSAFE BUILDINGS AND EQUIPMENT

[A] 115.1 Conditions.
Buildings, structures or equipment that are or hereafter become unsafe, shall be taken down, removed or made safe as the code official deems necessary and as provided for in this code.

[A] 115.2 Record.
The code official shall cause a report to be filed on an unsafe condition. The report shall state the occupancy of the structure and the nature of the unsafe condition.

[A] 115.3 Notice.
If an unsafe condition is found, the code official shall serve on the owner, the owner’s authorized agent or person in control of the structure a written notice that describes the condition deemed unsafe and specifies the required repairs or improvements to be made to abate the unsafe condition, or that requires the unsafe building to be demolished within a stipulated time. Such notice shall require the person thus notified to declare immediately to the code official acceptance or rejection of the terms of the order.

[A] 115.4 Method of service.
Such notice shall be deemed properly served if a copy thereof is delivered to the owner or the owner’s authorized agent personally; sent by certified or registered mail addressed to the owner or the owner’s authorized agent at the last known address with the return receipt requested; or delivered in any other manner as prescribed by local law. If the certified or registered letter is returned showing that the letter was not delivered, a copy thereof shall be posted in a conspicuous place in or about the structure affected by such notice. Service of such notice in the foregoing manner on the owner’s authorized agent or on the person responsible for the structure shall constitute service of notice on the owner.

[A] 115.5 Restoration.
The building or equipment determined to be unsafe by the code official is permitted to be restored to a safe condition. To the extent that repairs, alterations, or additions are made or a change of occupancy occurs during the restoration of the building, such repairs, alterations, additions, or change of occupancy shall comply with the requirements of this code.

IEBC does not directly apply to SFD. It is an optional route that can be taken, similar to how a SFD can be built to the IBC if IRC lacks the flexibility one desires.

 

[mtlogcabin]

You can use the IEBC or the IRC. However, the IRC would be very limited for declaring a SFR to be unsafe if there is no work being performed.

IEBC
[A] 101.2 Scope.
The provisions of this code shall apply to the repair, alteration, change of occupancy, addition to and relocation of existing buildings.

Exception: Detached one- and two-family dwellings and multiple single-family dwellings (townhouses) not more than three stories above grade plane in height with a separate means of egress, and their accessory structures not more than three stories above grade plane in height, shall comply with this code or the International Residential Code.

 

[classicT]

You can use the IEBC or the IRC. However, the IRC would be very limited for declaring a SFR to be unsafe if there is no work being performed.

IEBC
[A] 101.2 Scope.
The provisions of this code shall apply to the repair, alteration, change of occupancy, addition to and relocation of existing buildings.

Exception: Detached one- and two-family dwellings and multiple single-family dwellings (townhouses) not more than three stories above grade plane in height with a separate means of egress, and their accessory structures not more than three stories above grade plane in height, shall comply with this code or the International Residential Code.

Agree that the applicant gets to choose the IRC or the IEBC. That choice is the applicants, not the AHJ's.

And as you said, the IRC is very limited for declaring a SFD to be unsafe if no work is being performed.

 

[jar546]

I wouldn't issue any order related to condemning the property, but if I had a means by which to declare unsafe and order the occupant to vacate the premises, I would go that route.

Worth noting, the IRC does not have a provision similar to that of IBC Section 116 - Unsafe Structures and Equipment. It would likely be improper to reference IBC Sec. 116 for a SFD... so, unless there is some local ordinance, this AHJ may be responding correctly.

Jar, on what basis would you issue some type of order? Do you have a local ordinance or amendment that applies to SFD?

I stated I would post the property under the FBC Chapter 1 which is very similar to the IBC for declaring a property unsafe for human habitation, which is mistakenly referred to as "condemned," a work reserved for engineers. So if I have 2 engineers tell me the house is actively sinking, the liability monkey is on my back and I would declare it unsafe for human habitation, have the occupants removed, and move on. If they find an engineer to design a repair for the house, then we can issue a permit, but in this case, the verbiage from the geo guru would probably be enough to put a hold on the parcel for anything other than a demo permit.

 

[classicT]

I stated I would post the property under the FBC Chapter 1 which is very similar to the IBC for declaring a property unsafe for human habitation, which is mistakenly referred to as "condemned," a work reserved for engineers. So if I have 2 engineers tell me the house is actively sinking, the liability monkey is on my back and I would declare it unsafe for human habitation, have the occupants removed, and move on. If they find an engineer to design a repair for the house, then we can issue a permit, but in this case, the verbiage from the geo guru would probably be enough to put a hold on the parcel for anything other than a demo permit.

I see that the 2020 FBC (2018 IBC) has provisions for Unsafe Structures via Section 116.

However, the 2020 FBC-Residential (2018 IRC) does not have any provisions for unsafe structures.

 

[classicT]

I see that the 2020 FBC (2018 IBC) has provisions for Unsafe Structures via Section 116.

However, the 2020 FBC-Residential (2018 IRC) does not have any provisions for unsafe structures.

Shockingly, this is the complete Chapter 1 of the 2020 FBC-Residential. All of it.

Part 1 Scope and Application​

Section R101 General​

R101.1 Title​

These provisions shall be known as the Florida Building Code, Residential, and shall be cited as such and will be referred to herein as "this code."

R101.2 Scope​

The provisions of the Florida Building Code, Residential shall apply to the construction, alteration, movement, enlargement, replacement, repair, equipment, use and occupancy, location, removal and demolition of detached one- and two-family dwellings and townhouses not more than three stories above grade plane in height with a separate means of egress and their accessory structures not more than three stories above grade plane in height.
Exceptions:

1. Live/work units located in townhouses and complying with the requirements of Section 419 of the Florida Building Code, Building shall be permitted to be constructed in accordance with the Florida Building Code, Residential. Fire suppression required by Section 419.5 of the Florida Building Code, Building where constructed under the Florida Building Code, Residential shall conform to Section P2904.
2. Owner-occupied lodging houses with five or fewer guestrooms shall be permitted to be constructed in accordance with the Florida Building Code, Residential where equipped with a fire sprinkler system in accordance with Section P2904.
3. Existing buildings undergoing repair, alteration, additions or change of occupancy shall comply with the Florida Building Code, Existing Building.

R101.2.1​

The provisions of Chapter 1, Florida Building Code, Building, shall govern the administration and enforcement of the Florida Building Code, Residential.

 

[jar546]

Shockingly, this is the complete Chapter 1 of the 2020 FBC-Residential. All of it.

Not sure where you are looking.

SECTION 116 UNSAFE STRUCTURES AND EQUIPMENT
116.1 Conditions. Structures or existing equipment that are or hereafter become unsafe, unsanitary, or deficient because of inadequate means of egress facilities, inadequate light, and ventilation, or which constitute a fire hazard, or are otherwise dangerous to human life or the public welfare, or that involve illegal or improper occupancy or inadequate maintenance, shall be deemed an unsafe condition. Unsafe structures shall be taken down and removed or made safe, as the building official deems necessary and as provided for in this section. A vacant structure that is not secured against entry shall be deemed unsafe.

116.2 Record. The building official shall cause a report to be filed on an unsafe condition. The report shall state the occupancy of the structure and the nature of the unsafe condition.

116.3 Notice. If an unsafe condition is found, the building official shall serve the owner, agent or person in control of the structure, a written notice that describes the condition deemed unsafe and specifies the required repairs or improvements to be made to abate the unsafe condition, or that requires the unsafe structure to be demolished within a stipulated time. Such notice shall require the person thus notified to declare immediately to the building official acceptance or rejection of the terms of the order.

116.4 Method of service. Such notice shall be deemed properly served if a copy thereof is (a) delivered to the owner personally; (b) sent by certified or registered mail addressed to the owner at the last known address with the return receipt requested; or (c) delivered in any other manner as prescribed by local law. If the certified or registered letter is returned showing that the letter was not delivered, a copy thereof shall be posted in a conspicuous place in or about the structure affected by such notice. Service of such notice in the foregoing manner upon the owner’s agent or upon the person responsible for the structure shall constitute service of notice upon the owner.

116.5 Restoration. Where the structure or equipment determined to be unsafe by the building official is restored to a safe condition, to the extent that repairs, alterations, or additions are made or a change of occupancy occurs during the restoration of the structure, such repairs, alterations, additions and change of occupancy shall comply

 

[classicT]

Not sure where you are looking.

SECTION 116 UNSAFE STRUCTURES AND EQUIPMENT
116.1 Conditions. Structures or existing equipment that are or hereafter become unsafe, unsanitary, or deficient because of inadequate means of egress facilities, inadequate light, and ventilation, or which constitute a fire hazard, or are otherwise dangerous to human life or the public welfare, or that involve illegal or improper occupancy or inadequate maintenance, shall be deemed an unsafe condition. Unsafe structures shall be taken down and removed or made safe, as the building official deems necessary and as provided for in this section. A vacant structure that is not secured against entry shall be deemed unsafe.

116.2 Record. The building official shall cause a report to be filed on an unsafe condition. The report shall state the occupancy of the structure and the nature of the unsafe condition.

116.3 Notice. If an unsafe condition is found, the building official shall serve the owner, agent or person in control of the structure, a written notice that describes the condition deemed unsafe and specifies the required repairs or improvements to be made to abate the unsafe condition, or that requires the unsafe structure to be demolished within a stipulated time. Such notice shall require the person thus notified to declare immediately to the building official acceptance or rejection of the terms of the order.

116.4 Method of service. Such notice shall be deemed properly served if a copy thereof is (a) delivered to the owner personally; (b) sent by certified or registered mail addressed to the owner at the last known address with the return receipt requested; or (c) delivered in any other manner as prescribed by local law. If the certified or registered letter is returned showing that the letter was not delivered, a copy thereof shall be posted in a conspicuous place in or about the structure affected by such notice. Service of such notice in the foregoing manner upon the owner’s agent or upon the person responsible for the structure shall constitute service of notice upon the owner.

116.5 Restoration. Where the structure or equipment determined to be unsafe by the building official is restored to a safe condition, to the extent that repairs, alterations, or additions are made or a change of occupancy occurs during the restoration of the structure, such repairs, alterations, additions and change of occupancy shall comply

That is from the FBC... not the FBC-R. Right? FBC=IBC and FBC-Residential=IRC.

If it is a SFD, is it not outside the scope of the FBC/IBC? Scope wise, it falls under the residential code and the residential code does not have provisions for unsafe structures and equipment.

Code officials, myself included, should not pick and choose which book they want to use as is convenient for them. The applicant can make that choice if they wish, as granted by the code itself. But a code official should not elevate from the residential code to the commercial code because the residential code lacks the requisite requirement they want.

Think of it this way. The FBC/IBC is about the public good. Public buildings must be constructed to a higher standard as under reasonable assumption, they will serve more people and thus have a higher risk to public welfare.

The FBC-R/IRC are about minimum safeguards for protecting the occupant and first responders. The focus is much less on public safety and welfare. The residential codes by intent allow more flexibility to the occupant to make choices about their own domicile and avoid providing substantiating code that can be used to force people out of their own homes.

 

[jar546]

That is from the FBC... not the FBC-R. Right? FBC=IBC and FBC-Residential=IRC.

This is the FBC that is adopted by my jurisdiction which is the model Chapter 1 from BOAF. There is only one. What you see online as the basic FBC Chapter 1 is a skeleton to what everyone adopts. BOAF puts out the model Chapter 1 every year and most jurisdictions adopt that one with some tweaks such as refund policy, appendices adopted, etc.

 

[steveray]

Depending on what you do with Ch1 adoption...there is no good path to the IEBC from the IRC....unless it is a change of occupancy...CT amends in sections sending us to IBC

R102.7Existing structures.​

The legal occupancy of any structure existing on the date of adoption of this code shall be permitted to continue without change, except as is specifically covered in this code, the International Property Maintenance Code or the International Fire Code, or as is deemed necessary by the building official for the general safety and welfare of the occupants and the public.

R102.7.1Additions, alterations or repairs.​

Additions, alterations or repairs to any structure shall conform to the requirements for a new structure without requiring the existing structure to comply with the requirements of this code, unless otherwise stated. Additions, alterations, repairs and relocations shall not cause an existing structure to become less compliant with the provisions of this code than the existing building or structure was prior to the addition, alteration or repair. An existing building together with its additions shall comply with the height limits of this code. Where the alteration causes the use or occupancy to be changed to one not within the scope of this code, the provisions of the International Existing Building Code shall apply.

 

[classicT]

This is the FBC that is adopted by my jurisdiction which is the model Chapter 1 from BOAF. There is only one. What you see online as the basic FBC Chapter 1 is a skeleton to what everyone adopts. BOAF puts out the model Chapter 1 every year and most jurisdictions adopt that one with some tweaks such as refund policy, appendices adopted, etc.

I am looking at the ICC published FBC and FBC-R.

FBC-Residential (https://codes.iccsafe.org/content/FLRC2023P1/chapter-1-scope-and-administration) does not have the language you are posting.

The FBC, the commercial code, (https://codes.iccsafe.org/content/FLBC2023P1/chapter-1-scope-and-administration) does, but is not applicable to a SFD.

My assessment is that you are suggesting that you would apply provisions from the Ch. 1 Administration provisions from the commercial code to a SFD. That should not happen, as SFD are not within the scope of the FBC (IBC).

 

[ICE]

Well somebody needs to step up to the plate. History has shown that sinkholes can start out slow and finish in an instant. An engineer has stated that there is a sinkhole under the building... dithering over what code to cite is not what Building Safety is all about. Try the Fire Department... they have sirens.

 

[classicT]

Well somebody needs to step up to the plate. History has shown that sinkholes can start out slow and finish in an instant. An engineer has stated that there is a sinkhole under the building... dithering over what code to cite is not what Building Safety is all about. Try the Fire Department... they have sirens.

I don't dispute that something needs to be done. But we as code officials do not have ultimate authority over every aspect of building safety. In this case, the homeowner can move out voluntarily and does not need an order by the local code official. I suspect that he has gone to the media to try and force the local code officials hand. But, as I am pointing out, the code official may not have the authority to do so.

The real issue here is that the insurance company is refusing to act on the engineer's reports and is punting the decision to the local AHJ. They are playing a game of chicken in hopes that they can avoid a payout.

 

[ICE]

The real issue here is that the insurance company is refusing to act on the engineer's reports and is punting the decision to the local AHJ. They are playing a game of chicken in hopes that they can avoid a payout.

A sinkhole swallowing a house is the best advertising an insurance company can get. If the house is demolished before the sinkhole claims it, the visuals just aren't there.

 

[classicT]

A sinkhole swallowing a house is the best advertising an insurance company can get. If the house is demolished before the sinkhole claims it, the visuals just aren't there.

Great advertising, sure. But actually paying out, not so good for business.

 

[ICE]

I don't dispute that something needs to be done. But we as code officials do not have ultimate authority over every aspect of building safety.

Who then?

In this case, the homeowner can move out voluntarily and does not need an order by the local code official.

The owner is asking for help

 

[mark handler]

I assume this is in MT. Washington, New Hampshire,​

NHBC Section 116 Unsafe Structures and Equipment​

[A] 116.1 Conditions​

Structures or existing equipment that are or hereafter become unsafe, insanitary or deficient because of inadequate means of egress facilities, inadequate light and ventilation, or that constitute a fire hazard, or are otherwise dangerous to human life or the public welfare, or that involve illegal or improper occupancy or inadequate maintenance, shall be deemed an unsafe condition. Unsafe structures shall be taken down and removed or made safe, as the building official deems necessary and as provided for in this section. A vacant structure that is not secured against entry shall be deemed unsafe.

 

[ICE]

But actually paying out, not so good for business.

That's the best part of it for the insurance company. Insurance companies are like casinos, they have to pay out in a splash to entice the next gambler. It sends the message that this could happen to you so step right up and let us stick our hand in your pocket.

 

[classicT]

I assume this is in MT. Washington, New Hampshire,​

NHBC Section 116 Unsafe Structures and Equipment​

[A] 116.1 Conditions​

Structures or existing equipment that are or hereafter become unsafe, insanitary or deficient because of inadequate means of egress facilities, inadequate light and ventilation, or that constitute a fire hazard, or are otherwise dangerous to human life or the public welfare, or that involve illegal or improper occupancy or inadequate maintenance, shall be deemed an unsafe condition. Unsafe structures shall be taken down and removed or made safe, as the building official deems necessary and as provided for in this section. A vacant structure that is not secured against entry shall be deemed unsafe.

Again, similar to Jar, you are pulling this code from the commercial building code.

The Residential Code for One- and Two-family Dwellings of the State of New Hampshire does not include this provision. Cannot use a provision that is outside the scope of the code.