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Homeowner trying to get his house condemned because he says he’s living over a sinkhole

classicT said:
But actually paying out, not so good for business.
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That's the best part of it for the insurance company. Insurance companies are like casinos, they have to pay out in a splash to entice the next gambler. It sends the message that this could happen to you so step right up and let us stick our hand into your pocket.

1643917496469.png
 
classicT said:
My assessment is that you are suggesting that you would apply provisions from the Ch. 1 Administration provisions from the commercial code to a SFD. That should not happen, as SFD is not within the scope of the FBC (IBC).
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Again, what is online is basic framework and every county and municipality has their own which takes the basic framework from the FBC. In Florida, Chapter 1 is commercial and residential. We have an abundance of state statute and admin code to cover this situation. This is not the IBC / IRC country although the framework for the FBC is from the I-Codes.
 
classicT said:
Odd given that is not what ICC has published.
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If your municipality does not adopt their own Chapter 1 of the FBC, then, whatever is in Chapter one of the FBC and FBC Residential apply, and there are a lot of missing pieces to that basic framework, which is why BOAF comes out with a model Chapter 1 that includes all FBC codes. No one wants to just use the basic framework of the Building & Residential which is why everyone adopts their own version based off of BOAF.

The one code that Florida uses in addition the the normally adopted FBC Administration would be Chapter 1 of the FBC Energy Code.
 
jar546 said:
If your municipality does not adopt their own Chapter 1 of the FBC, then, whatever is in Chapter one of the FBC and FBC Residential apply, and there are a lot of missing pieces to that basic framework, which is why BOAF comes out with a model Chapter 1 that includes all FBC codes. No one wants to just use the basic framework of the Building & Residential which is why everyone adopts their own version based off of BOAF.

The one code that Florida uses in addition the the normally adopted FBC Administration would be Chapter 1 of the FBC Energy Code.
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Got it. So it is a local adoption then. Not the state model code, but a local amendment to the model language in the commercial code, modified for both residential and commercial, adopted via local ordinance.

That's what I was getting at back at the start of this dialogue.

classicT said:
Jar, on what basis would you issue some type of order? Do you have a local ordinance or amendment that applies to SFD?
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jar546 said:
I stated I would post the property under the FBC Chapter 1
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Per IRC, Chapter 4, Have them verify the foundation and slab's ability to support the required design loads.
If it cannot, the house is uninhabitable.
 
Since the IRC is silent on addressing unsafe or dangerous buildings not related to permitted work, then the IEBC is what you use to determine if it is safe, unsafe or dangerous for the occupants and their visitors.

IEBC 2018
[A] 102.4.1 Conflicts.
Where conflicts occur between provisions of this code and referenced codes and standards, the provisions of this code shall apply.

[A] 102.4.2 Conflicting provisions.
Where the extent of the reference to a referenced code or standard includes subject matter that is within the scope of this code, the provisions of this code, as applicable, shall take precedence over the provisions in the referenced code or standard.

[A] BUILDING. Any structure utilized or intended for supporting or sheltering any occupancy.

[A] EXISTING BUILDING. A building erected prior to the date of adoption of the appropriate code, or one for which a legal building permit has been issued.

[A] EXISTING STRUCTURE. A structure erected prior to the date of adoption of the appropriate code, or one for which a legal building permit has been issued.

[BS] DANGEROUS. Any building, structure or portion thereof that meets any of the conditions described below shall be deemed dangerous:

1. The building or structure has collapsed, has partially collapsed, has moved off its foundation, or lacks the necessary support of the ground.

2. There exists a significant risk of collapse, detachment or dislodgement of any portion, member, appurtenance or ornamentation of the building or structure under service loads.
 
classicT said:
Again, similar to Jar, you are pulling this code from the commercial building code.

The Residential Code for One- and Two-family Dwellings of the State of New Hampshire does not include this provision. Cannot use a provision that is outside the scope of the code.
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But for you, Washington State:
2021 Washington State Residential Code
R102.7.1 Additions, Alterations, Change of Use, Repairs, or Relocations
"...the building shall comply with the International Existing Building Code...."
 
mark handler said:
Per IRC, Chapter 4, Have them verify the foundation and slab's ability to support the required design loads.
If it cannot, the house is uninhabitable.
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R104.3 Notices and Orders
The building official shall issue necessary notices or orders to ensure compliance with this code.

If it does not meet code, for safety reasons, it cannot be occupied
 
mark handler said:
But for you, Washington State:
2021 Washington State Residential Code
R102.7.1 Additions, Alterations, Change of Use, Repairs, or Relocations
"...the building shall comply with the International Existing Building Code...."
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Washington has not yet adopted the 2021 codes.

And the quote you pulled is not in the 2018.

WA-RC - R102.7.1 Additions, Alterations or Repairs​

Additions, alterations or repairs to any structure shall conform to the requirements for a new structure without requiring the existing structure to comply with the requirements of this code, unless otherwise stated. Additions, alterations or repairs and relocations shall not cause an existing structure to become unsafe or adversely affect the performance of the building.
Exceptions:
  1. Additions with less than 500 square feet (46 m2) of conditioned floor area are exempt from the requirements for Whole House Ventilation Systems, Section M1505.4.
  2. Additions or alterations to existing buildings which do not require the construction of foundations, crawlspaces, slabs or basements shall not be required to meet the requirements for radon protection in Section R332.1 and Appendix F.
 
mark handler said:
R104.3 Notices and Orders
The building official shall issue necessary notices or orders to ensure compliance with this code.

If it does not meet code, for safety reasons, it cannot be occupied
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I did find where you pulled the quote from, and you definitely pulled it out of context and trimmed the quote to fit what you wanted it to say.

Future WA 2021 RC - R102.7.1 Additions, Alterations, Change of Use, Repairs, or Relocations​

Additions, alterations, repairs, or relocations shall be permitted to conform to the requirements of the provisions of Chapter 45 or shall conform to the requirements for new structure without requiring the existing structure to comply with the requirements of this code, unless otherwise stated. Additions, alterations, repairs, and relocations shall not cause an existing structure to become less compliant with the provisions of this code than the existing building or structure was prior to the addition, alteration, repair, or relocation. Where additions, alterations, or changes of use to an existing structure result in a use or occupancy, height, or means of egress outside the scope of this code, the building shall comply with the International Existing Building Code.
EXCEPTIONS:
  1. Additions with less than 500 square feet of conditioned floor area are exempt from the requirements for Whole House Ventilation Systems, Section M1505.4.
  2. Additions or alterations to existing buildings which do not require the construction of foundations, crawlspaces, slabs or basements shall not be required to meet the requirements for radon protection in Section R332.1 and Appendix F.
All of that said, if I as a code official in WA wanted a section to cite, I would rely upon the following and could revoke the certificate of occupancy.

WA RC - R102.7 Existing Structures​

The legal occupancy of any structure existing on the date of adoption of this code shall be permitted to continue without change, except as is specifically covered in this code, the International Property Maintenance Code or the International Fire Code, or as is deemed necessary by the building official for the general safety and welfare of the occupants and the public.
 
classicT said:
Washington has not yet adopted the 2021 codes.

And the quote you pulled is not in the 2018.

WA-RC - R102.7.1 Additions, Alterations or Repairs​

Additions, alterations or repairs to any structure shall conform to the requirements for a new structure without requiring the existing structure to comply with the requirements of this code, unless otherwise stated. Additions, alterations or repairs and relocations shall not cause an existing structure to become unsafe or adversely affect the performance of the building.
Exceptions:
  1. Additions with less than 500 square feet (46 m2) of conditioned floor area are exempt from the requirements for Whole House Ventilation Systems, Section M1505.4.
  2. Additions or alterations to existing buildings which do not require the construction of foundations, crawlspaces, slabs or basements shall not be required to meet the requirements for radon protection in Section R332.1 and Appendix F.
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IN WASHINGTON STATE:
October 29, 2023, the 2021 editions of the code will come into effect
including the 2021 International Existing Building Code
 
jar546 said:
This is the FBC that is adopted by my jurisdiction which is the model Chapter 1 from BOAF.
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The 2020 FBC, Building is showing Section 116 as "Reserved," so it sounds like Florida didn't adopt that portion of the IBC. Same for the 2023 FBC, Building.

2020 FLORIDA BUILDING CODE, BUILDING, 7TH EDITION | ICC DIGITAL CODES

ICC Digital Codes is the largest provider of model codes, custom codes and standards used worldwide to construct safe, sustainable, affordable and resilient structures.
codes.iccsafe.org codes.iccsafe.org

2023 FLORIDA BUILDING CODE, BUILDING, EIGHTH EDITION | ICC DIGITAL CODES

ICC Digital Codes is the largest provider of model codes, custom codes and standards used worldwide to construct safe, sustainable, affordable and resilient structures.
codes.iccsafe.org codes.iccsafe.org

Cheers, Wayne
 
wwhitney said:
WAVE TV is in Kentucky, so presumably Mt Washington, Kentucky.

en.wikipedia.org

WAVE (TV) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

Cheers, Wayne
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Kentucky Residential Code R102.7 Existing Structures​

The legal occupancy of any structure existing on the date of adoption of this code shall be permitted to continue without change, except as is specifically covered in this code, the locally adopted property maintenance code, or as is deemed necessary by the building official for the general safety and welfare of the occupants and the public.

no joy, if there is no, locally adopted property maintenance code
 
mark handler said:
except as is specifically covered in this code
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Seems like this portion of R102.7 allows one to look elsewhere in the Kentucky Residential Code. So what about R110 "Certificate of Occupancy" and specifically R110.5?

R110.5 Revocation
The building official shall, in writing, suspend or revoke a certificate of occupancy issued under the provisions of this code wherever the certificate is issued in error, or on the basis of incorrect information supplied, or where it is determined that the building or structure or portion thereof is in violation of any ordinance or regulation or any of the provisions of this code.

Presumably the sinkhole means that there is a provision of the IRC that is being violated.

Cheers, Wayne
 
mark handler said:
or as is deemed necessary by the building official for the general safety and welfare of the occupants and the public.
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I believe that with the engineers report the building official could (should) notify the owner that his residence is a dangerous building and require him to submit engineered plans for remediation of the existing condition that will make the building safe again. I would recommend that the home be vacated until the repairs are completed. If he chose to stay, then he assumes the risk with that option.
That should be enough to start the process of getting the insurance company to act with the help of an attorney.
 
Do they have 113?

R113.1 Unlawful Acts​


It shall be unlawful for any person, firm or corporation to erect, construct, alter, extend, repair, move, remove, demolish or occupy any building, structure or equipment regulated by this code, or cause same to be done, in conflict with or in violation of any of the provisions of this code.

A structural failure would be in violation of this code....
 
mark handler said:

Kentucky Residential Code R102.7 Existing Structures​

The legal occupancy of any structure existing on the date of adoption of this code shall be permitted to continue without change, except as is specifically covered in this code, the locally adopted property maintenance code, or as is deemed necessary by the building official for the general safety and welfare of the occupants and the public.

no joy, if there is no, locally adopted property maintenance code
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mark handler said:
or as is deemed necessary by the building official for the general safety and welfare of the occupants and the public.
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