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How to install a residential backup generator (video)

jar546

jar546

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This looks like a Kohler installation. Take 6 minutes and see if you can spot any violations. If so, cite the code and section.

[video=youtube;fLjHPKkIMWo]

 
Obviously have no code books with me but I saw a feel things I did not like. The liquid tight flex conduit should not be under ground. Did not see a straight flex connector for vibration dampening right before the last gas pipe connection at the generator. Too close to the basement window per manufacturer. CSST pipe way too small for 20 kw at that run length. Missing multiple shut off valves and at least one drip leg. Not sure about the stranded copper at the ground rods and the CSST bonding looked non existent. Hard to see the electric but did not see load shed or separated neutrals and grounds etc. hard to tell much else. What did I miss? I know I missed a lot and I am probably wrong on something but at least I gave it a shot right? I hate generator inspections. Not my trade but still have to do them. Bleh.
 
From a person like me that doesn't know any better, from what I could see, it looked like a pretty good install exept the electrical looks a little messy and why not put it on a concrete pad instead of gravel.

Since the black gas pipe was installed inside the liquid tight for protection, is it safe to assume that gas line isn't suitable to be installed outdoors or underground? Since it was installed so close to a window, I'm wondering if the window is fixed?
 
jwelectric said:
I did not see the 702.12-225.31 disconnect between the generator and the house. Is there one?
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Most of these backup generators have an internal OCPD that serves ad a means of disconnect. Also the transfer switch serves as a disconnect.
 
Most manufacturers want a gravel base as a means to dampen vibration of the machine to help keep all the connections from becoming loose. This is also why the last section of gas pipe is usually required to be flexible pipe and is provided with the unit by most manufacturers.

What did you see JAR?
 
I watched it once but was distracted so I don't know. Sometimes I just like to get discussion going to keep the forum active. Now I am going to have to watch it again! Thanks a lot.
 
electriclese said:
Most of these backup generators have an internal OCPD that serves ad a means of disconnect. Also the transfer switch serves as a disconnect.
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jar546 said:
Yes, I agree
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2005

702.11 Outdoor Generator Sets

Where an outdoor housed generator set is equipped with a readily accessible disconnecting means located within sight of the building or structure supplied, an additional disconnecting means shall not be required where ungrounded conductors serve or pass through the building or structure.

2008

702.11 Outdoor Generator Sets.

Where an outdoor housed generator set is equipped with a readily accessible disconnecting means located within sight of the building or structure supplied, an additional disconnecting means shall not be required where ungrounded conductors serve or pass through the building or structure. The disconnecting means shall meet the requirements of 225.36.

It was moved in the 2011 cycle to 702.12 but the wording is the same as in 2008

Notice that all three cycles makes the comment that the disconnect on the generator must be within sight of the building that it serves. It doesn’t say that the generator is to be within sight but the disconnect must be within sight so if it can’t be seen then it ain’t within sight.

Also notice the requirement that the disconnect meet the requirements of 225.36 which is as follows;

225.36 Suitable for Service Equipment.

The disconnecting means specified in 225.31 shall be suitable for use as service equipment.

And here is 225.31

225.31 Disconnecting Means.

Means shall be provided for disconnecting all ungrounded conductors that supply or pass through the building or structure.

If neither the disconnect on the generator or the transfer switch is suitable as service equipment then neither would meet the requirements and a disconnect is required to be installed.

In the video they installed a service disconnect which tells me the transfer switch is not suitable as service equipment.
 
At least it is short. I thought at first that the black iron pipe needed to be painted but it appears to be in a basement not under a deck like I thought. At least they used a decent regulator (looks like a maxitrol) to step down to standard pressure on the gas pipe and it was installed horizontal which is correct so they are somewhat correct with the gas pipe. Still missing shut off valves throughout. I wish we would get more discussion on these good topics from more members??? Don't be shy people! Debate is healthy.
 
And JWElectric. I for one find your input very useful. Thank you for taking the time to add the code language etc and contributing intelligently. We appreciate your contributions...
 
A few more things from my pov, just watched some of the video on my phone. Retaining wall is going to rot eventually, should be masonry of some sort. Should be a leveled concrete slab set on well compacted gravel base and generator bolted to slab. Phone stopped playing video at this point.
 
This was installed in Sterling, Virginia. So I assume they require a permit and inspection for this?

It is obviously a compliant installation because it must have been inspected. I guess...................
 
jar546 said:
This was installed in Sterling, Virginia. So I assume they require a permit and inspection for this? It is obviously a compliant installation because it must have been inspected. I guess...................
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An inspection in no way makes an installation compliant. Code compliance makes an installation compliant.The installation posted above is not compliant with any code I am aware of and the inspector needs a continuing education class if he passed this installation.
 
Permanent generators like this one absolutely require permits and inspections in Virginia for gas and electric work. I have also seen a huge number of "electricians" that are "unaware" of the retirement. This is often prevalent after tropical storms come through.
 
Good point Daddy-O about the no permit for generators.

Being as involved with the IAEI as I am I have also learned that there are certain things that inspectors also don’t understand when it comes to electrical installations. This is due to the, “this is the way it has been done for years,” or “I saw a picture somewhere like this” mentality that causes a lot of noncompliant installations.

Not long ago I was called by an electrician who had identified the high leg of a delta 240/120 with orange phase tape and was told by the electrical inspector he had to do it in a different manner because the 480 volt system was “required” to be Brown, Orange, and Yellow by the electrical inspector.

What does the NEC require? Neutral to be white or gray, EGC to be green or bare, high leg to be orange but nothing about what color the ungrounded conductors are to be. In this case the inspector was requiring the electrician to make a noncompliant installation just because the inspector lacked knowledge of the code he was trying to enforce.

Inspectors are just a human as the rest of the folks walking around and need to learn their trade and need to learn that the only enforcement they are allowed to make is what is written in the books they are hired to enforce.

A good case in point is the venting of a bath fan, not required by the NEC. Draft stopping, not required by the NEC. Bonding of CSST gas pipe, not required by the NEC but electrical inspectors write these up on the electrical inspections daily. Bath fan venting and CSST pipe bonding is a requirement of the Mechanical code and draft stopping is a building code issue.

Then we have the stand-alone generator issue. According to the same requirement of the CSST gas piping the stand-alone generator must be installed by the instructions included in the listing and labeling but they are allowed to be installed in a noncompliant manner daily. Inspectors sign off on noncompliant installations of these daily and many have never heard of UL FTCN. They only know about the flyers put out by the manufactures of the generators.
 
jwelectric said:
A good case in point is the venting of a bath fan, not required by the NEC. Draft stopping, not required by the NEC. Bonding of CSST gas pipe, not required by the NEC but electrical inspectors write these up on the electrical inspections daily. Bath fan venting and CSST pipe bonding is a requirement of the Mechanical code and draft stopping is a building code issue. .
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It matters the jurisdiction your in. The draft stopping and CSST bonding are the responsibility of the electrical inspector in NJ by state statutes.
 
rnapier said:
It matters the jurisdiction your in. The draft stopping and CSST bonding are the responsibility of the electrical inspector in NJ by state statutes.
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Excellent point. Many times we think that the world revolves around our neck of the woods, when in fact, many local and state rules and regulations make a significant difference.
 
This installation leaves more questions than answers. Is the ATS being used as a main disconnect? The grounding electrode conductors appear to go to the ATS but are not bonded to the grounded service conductor

250.24

(D) Grounding Electrode Conductor. A grounding electrode conductor shall be used to connect the equipment grounding conductors, the service-equipment enclosures, and, where the system is grounded, the grounded service conductor to the grounding electrode(s) required by Part III of this article. This conductor shall be sized in accordance with 250.66. High-impedance grounded neutral system connections shall be made as covered in 250.36.

I am no sure of the clearances 110.26 A.

The flexible conduit does not seem to be rated for direct burial.

There is no mention of load calculations 702.4 and worth noting on these home generators is that the KW rating in big letters on the outside are for propane and if you use natural gas you loose a few KW.

The distance from the window is a concern.

These are some issues I can see.
 
rnapier said:
It matters the jurisdiction your in. The draft stopping and CSST bonding are the responsibility of the electrical inspector in NJ by state statutes.
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True but my statement was clear, "not required by the NEC"In NC it would be against the law for an electrician to install the bath fan vent. The CSST bonding is a manufacture requirement that is addressed to the installer and the electrician is not the installer of the CSST pipe therefore it becomes a mechanical inspection criteria not an electrical criteria although it would be an electrical installation.

Should I happen to come to your state to do work you can bet your last dollar that I would be standing before the licensing board demanding how I could be held liable for the actions of another trade. Maybe someone up there should try this.

In most cases when someone answers questions on this type forum they are answering according to the laws in their area unless it becomes a forum where the posters are supposed to know the laws all across the nation.
 
rnapier said:
It matters the jurisdiction your in. The draft stopping and CSST bonding are the responsibility of the electrical inspector in NJ by state statutes.
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If you don't mind would you post the amendment that requires this up there as the wording might be helpful in other places.Here in NC the draft stopping is in the building code not the electrical code.

The CSST bonding is in the listing and labeling requirements of the CSST pipe and not in any code therefore outside the electrical inspectors rights to require it to be installed although when it is installed the electrical inspector must be the one to do the inspection.

it is a catch 22 as the heating inspector cannot require an electrical inspection even if it is a multi-trade inspector.
 
jwelectric said:
If you don't mind would you post the amendment that requires this up there as the wording might be helpful in other places.Here in NC the draft stopping is in the building code not the electrical code.

The CSST bonding is in the listing and labeling requirements of the CSST pipe and not in any code therefore outside the electrical inspectors rights to require it to be installed although when it is installed the electrical inspector must be the one to do the inspection.

it is a catch 22 as the heating inspector cannot require an electrical inspection even if it is a multi-trade inspector.
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The IRC specifically has a CSST bonding requirement so it is beyond the manufacturer's requirement. The bond is done with electrical wire and connected to the electrical grounding system. As an combination inspector, I can give a crap who does it but will fail the installation and the mechanical contractor, plumber and electrician can all fight over who is going to fix it but it won't pass inspection until it is done. The semantics of it is a problem for the trades, not the inspector.

We have had electricians who refuse to let the other trades touch "my stuff" and automatically do the bonding because they know it must be done. Sometimes the trade that installed the CSST does it upon installation. I really don't give a crap who does it, just get it done and whine amongst yourselves.
 
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