ICC collapsing

[CodeWarrior]

You may find getting ahold of organizations a lot harder these days with the effects of Covid-19 forcing changes in the way they carry on their business.

Add ICC to the list. Several employees, some with 30 + years experience have been furloughed or dismissed recently. This means those who you like working with may not pick up the phone or reply to that email. Since experience appears to be a detriment at ICC, the move appears to be their way of ridding themselves of nuisance workers and those with salaries corresponding to their many years with the place.

ICC’s recent acquisitions apparently were planned based on continued growth, so it is stunning that in the two months since lock-downs began nationwide, customers largely stayed away, forcing the contraction of the workforce.

Maybe they need to get the 2021 codes out soon. If there is anyone left working there to finish them, that is.

 

[Mark K]

Separate from the pandemic you should look at the Supreme Court Ruling in Georgia v Public.Resource.org. This greatly strengthens the recognition that once a jurisdiction has adopted a model code there is no longer a copyright for ICC's contribution to the adopted building code. This means that income from sales of codes is likely to go away.

ICC should think of itself as an organization looking after its building department members and not an organization whose first duty is to purchasers of its evaluation reports and certifications.

 

[cda]

Yep what is the fall back, ..NFPA??

Hammurabi code ???

 

[SCBO1]

ICE code!

 

[Keystone]

You may find getting ahold of organizations a lot harder these days with the effects of Covid-19 forcing changes in the way they carry on their business.

Add ICC to the list. Several employees, some with 30 + years experience have been furloughed or dismissed recently. This means those who you like working with may not pick up the phone or reply to that email. Since experience appears to be a detriment at ICC, the move appears to be their way of ridding themselves of nuisance workers and those with salaries corresponding to their many years with the place.

ICC’s recent acquisitions apparently were planned based on continued growth, so it is stunning that in the two months since lock-downs began nationwide, customers largely stayed away, forcing the contraction of the workforce.

Maybe they need to get the 2021 codes out soon. If there is anyone left working there to finish them, that is.

My .2 cents. Yes as with most organizations, people with experience have been furloughed. This in itself is not unheard of. However while it may be likely those folks will transition from furloughed to permanently separated it is as far as I know speculation, unless of course any one person on this forum has direct knowledge such as I believe JP Ranch and can and would be willing to confirm.


Even if that is the case, employers owe employees nothing! We are all replaceable, some less easily then others. Dedication to an employee or employer, working from young adult through retirement with the same employer is almost a bygone experience. The economy and world is undoubtably a different place. Any business not concerned after this pandemic and making changes toward its future will suffer or meet its demise. ICC has for better or worse evolved from its inception and I would suspect will continue to do so. Why, they have taken random codes throughout the United States and transformed them into a national and international code based platform, they are a face within the politics, they have worldwide exposure.

 

[Glenn]

I have still been busy working with many ICC staff members on both my second edition book and on webinars and training. The organization is just having stresses like all of us, but I don't think collapse is coming. They have already greatly shifted their code development revenue away from book sales, although those other revenue sources are taking a hit.

I think the first sign would be a change to the frequency of the code hearings, but I have heard zero word about that. I think it's convenient that this was already an "off year" for hearings.

 

[jpranch]

The sky is not falling folks. Btw, NFPA let go some employees before the COVID-19 even started.

 

[north star]

% ~ % ~ %

Thank you **jp** for the update !

% ~ % ~ %

 

[ICE]

If ICC goes down the federal government will have to take over.

 

[CodeWarrior]

A few days ago, ICC had several employment openings posted. Now they disappeared. Additional employees were notified that would be furloughed or terminated. Then ICC realized that these folks could haved filled those advertised positions. Oops! The affected workers had to be reinstated and the openings were closed.

As the politicians like so say "You never let a serious crisis go to waste. This means it's an opportunity to do things you think you could not do before."

This is probably hanging on someone's wall at ICE. We'll see if the furloughed return.

 

[Mark K]

The Federal government will not take over nor can they. Building regulation is one of the things reserved to the states.

ICC provides very little content. The vast majority of the effort is provided by the entities that produce the reference standards. ICC does manage the process by which the model codes are modified and if ICC ceases to exist then somebody else could take over that effort.

While it is possible that ICC could be much smaller I doubt that it will totally cease to exist.

 

[jpranch]

The code council is in no danger of "ceasing to exist". We have worked very hard to build reserves, diversify our revenue streams, and be financially responsible stewards of the memberships resources. If I was to tell you that all is well that would be pure B.S. and I know that you would call me out on it. All is not well with this COVID-19 and the impact it has had on the global economy and it should be completely understandable that changes or adjustments needed to be made. Do not ask me specifics on ICC staff as I'm certain you understand that I cannot and will not be able to respond to that. Anybody that has ever supervised employees would certainly understand. Again, the sky is not falling folks.

 

[tmurray]

Our municipality has pulled posted openings for positions and laid off some staff. I would imagine we are in the majority. If these are signs of imminent failure, then everyone is at risk of imminent failure.

 

[ADAguy]

If ICC goes down the federal government will have to take over.

Say it won't be so!

 

[cda]

Say it won't be so!

Don’t worry

We are going to roll out “ The Interstellar Building Code Forum Code” !!!!

Good for use on any planet in the universe.

 

[jpranch]

The romulans will never go for it!

 

[CodeWarrior]

ICC has a brilliant position, by publishing essentially the building code in the USA. I initially said created, but we all know that is not true, because ICC itself provides no research or original content. But they sell (or maybe ration is a better word ) the codes anyway without having to compensate the volunteers who develop the things.

The evaluation service seems to act similarly, with the manufacturers who know the ropes writing reports and criteria, which ICC publishes . New companies who don't know the ropes are ignored until they either figure it out or give up. Overall, also pretty profitable.

Where does the money go?

 

[Mark K]

To find out where the money goes it would help to see the organizations budget and the income tax filings. Is there a claim of immunity?

I suspect that a significant amount of the money goes pay generous salaries for management. ICC should be beholding to its members but if a lot of the income comes from manufacturers of products, we could have a situation where management is more differential to manufacturers. Can you spell conflict of interest?

 

[Keystone]

To find out where the money goes it would help to see the organizations budget and the income tax filings. Is there a claim of immunity?

I suspect that a significant amount of the money goes pay generous salaries for management. ICC should be beholding to its members but if a lot of the income comes from manufacturers of products, we could have a situation where management is more differential to manufacturers. Can you spell conflict of interest?

ICC operates as a non profit therefore statement of financial interest and taxes are available to the public.

 

[mtlogcabin]

Here is 15 years of annual reports for your reading pleasure

https://www.iccsafe.org/about/overview/annual-report/

Annual Report 2019
Archives

The Code Council’s most recently filed IRS Form 990 will be made available upon request.

For faster viewing/downloading, right click link and select "save target as" and save to your computer.

• 2018 Annual Report
• 2017 Annual Report
  • Part 1 (4MB)
  • Part 2 (5MB)
• 2016 Annual Report
• 2015 Annual Report
• 2014 Annual Report
• 2013 Annual Report
• 2012 Annual Report
• 2011 Annual Report
• 2010 Annual Report
• 2009 Annual Report
• 2008 Annual Report
• 2007 Annual Report
• 2006 Annual Report
• 2005 Annual Report

 

[jpranch]

If you want to follow the money folks just go to the IRS website and look at the 990's. The 990's are public information. The IRS website is not the most user friendly site but you can find what you are looking for. The reports (990's) are published each May for the preceding year. You can also look at other SDO's such as ASTM, NFPA, ANSI, etc...

 

[Glenn]

ICC has a brilliant position, by publishing essentially the building code in the USA. I initially said created, but we all know that is not true, because ICC itself provides no research or original content. But they sell (or maybe ration is a better word ) the codes anyway without having to compensate the volunteers who develop the things.

The evaluation service seems to act similarly, with the manufacturers who know the ropes writing reports and criteria, which ICC publishes . New companies who don't know the ropes are ignored until they either figure it out or give up. Overall, also pretty profitable.

Where does the money go?

I respectfully disagree on all counts.

You mention conflict of interest, but then compensating those that contribute to developing the code... Read that one more time and think about it. The lack of compensation is why all ideas are welcome from anyone and everyone. The code is developed honorably (yes, of course there are dishonorably players and stories, but that's the case in everything). Those that vote on committees or as government members don't get paid either. Thank the Lord! If money was involved in the hearings, you would absolutely have a bought code. That is the furthest from anything we should ever wish for. The development process is an extremely expensive endeavor, yet costs nothing to anyone at any point to attend, contribute, and learn. It is brilliant indeed!

As a consultant, I had a client of a small manufacturing business ask if I would assist them in obtaining an es report. Being familiar with reports, but not the process, I did some research. I emailed ICC-es. I was quite impressed by the very long, detailed, and continuous communications with me of how it's done, cost estimates, etc. I didn't feel ignored in the least bit.

 

[CodeWarrior]

I respectfully disagree on all counts.

You mention conflict of interest, but then compensating those that contribute to developing the code... Read that one more time and think about it. The lack of compensation is why all ideas are welcome from anyone and everyone. The code is developed honorably (yes, of course there are dishonorably players and stories, but that's the case in everything). Those that vote on committees or as government members don't get paid either. Thank the Lord! If money was involved in the hearings, you would absolutely have a bought code. That is the furthest from anything we should ever wish for. The development process is an extremely expensive endeavor, yet costs nothing to anyone at any point to attend, contribute, and learn. It is brilliant indeed!

As a consultant, I had a client of a small manufacturing business ask if I would assist them in obtaining an es report. Being familiar with reports, but not the process, I did some research. I emailed ICC-es. I was quite impressed by the very long, detailed, and continuous communications with me of how it's done, cost estimates, etc. I didn't feel ignored in the least bit.

Thanks for reading my post, maybe I wasn't clear about the point I was making. ICC is not much different from other SDOs where the code or standard is written by volunteers and the staff largely stays out of the way except to administer the proceedings. In Europe, the standards are written by a committee of experts and public input on the progress is not easy to offer. I don't like the EU way that much. So, the ICC fits the US model more or less. The point I am making is volunteers write the code, and ICC offers the process by which these folks can group together. By not paying these people (not that they should) ICC has created a fairly profitable position. I don't get how you claim the process is "an extremely expensive endeavor" though. ICC gives away a lot of the codes to the paid members, but that might be their problem, they give a lot away and the rest of us aren't buying like they used to.

Sounds like you had a pleasant experience with ES, but while it apparently started well, you didn't mention how it ended up. Did your client achieve what they asked for?

 

[Glenn]

Thanks for reading my post, maybe I wasn't clear about the point I was making. ICC is not much different from other SDOs where the code or standard is written by volunteers and the staff largely stays out of the way except to administer the proceedings. In Europe, the standards are written by a committee of experts and public input on the progress is not easy to offer. I don't like the EU way that much. So, the ICC fits the US model more or less. The point I am making is volunteers write the code, and ICC offers the process by which these folks can group together. By not paying these people (not that they should) ICC has created a fairly profitable position. I don't get how you claim the process is "an extremely expensive endeavor" though. ICC gives away a lot of the codes to the paid members, but that might be their problem, they give a lot away and the rest of us aren't buying like they used to.

Sounds like you had a pleasant experience with ES, but while it apparently started well, you didn't mention how it ended up. Did your client achieve what they asked for?

Good conversation. I attend the ICC code development hearings and participate in developing it. Staff is definitely good at doing their job as mere hosts to the process. I wear the volunteer hat as a code official, just helping create good code (though not employed as such currently), but for certain proposals I wear a paid consultant hat for the deck industry, also just seeking good code (like backyard decks). So it's not all volunteers that develop the code, ha, ha! In fact it is a lot of paid folks. But that is OKAY, because they bring the collective voice of other professionals not poised to testify. However the people who vote are not paid, so that's good. By "extremely expensive" I mean hosting the hearings for so long for so many people. The venues are huge and rented for a long while. I'm not an event planner, but I can't imagine it is cheap to host.

I have also made attempts at contributing to the development of certain referenced standards from the I-codes, through other SDOs. My experience was nothing like the opening and welcoming process with ICC where you can make a real difference. It felt much like the EU experience you mention. I won't mention names, but I was not impressed...

As for ES, that story is not complete yet. COVID has messed up a lot of people's work that was underway or starting. So, I can only say "so far" I found ES incredibly responsive and supportive. Yes... I am sure it will still be a costly endeavor, but I feel most things are these days.

Glad we could disagree but still discuss and have civility. It's lacking more and more in the online environment.