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In-wall tank toilets in a fire-rated wall

Y

Yikes

SAWHORSE
Joined
Nov 2, 2009
Messages
3,947
Location
Southern California
1 hour type V wood framed wall, uses 5/8" X to achieve fire rating.
Geberit wall-mounted toilet with concealed in-wall tank, which fits in the stud cavity, and a pushbutton flush plate ("actuator") that goes through the Type X gyp board with a square opening that is about 5.5" x 9.5"

Does this penetration of the actuator meet code for a 1 hour wall?
If not, how do we fix it? Fire putty? Line the stud bay with gyp board? (The metal carrier is supposed to attach directly to studs.)
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If it meets the requirments then Gerberit should be able to provide you with listing information and the wall listing should list for the pentration of the assembly
 
IBC 714.4.2 (714.4.1), I think you need tested systems for this as what you describe does not appear to match any of the prescriptive solutions. Your picture shows PVC or ABS, which may also present an issue. Get this issue addressed fast. Most firestop packages are deferred and when a potentially huge issue like this comes up after they have all been installed it can get ugly. Like TheCommish said, if there is a solution, the MFR should have it (either as a tested system or as an EJ). PLEASE update this for me, as firestop is an on-going problem. Many of my bigger jobs have firestop issues, and I often end up seeking help form a firestop consultant. I would like to know the outcome.
 
Yikes said:
Sifu, I found something on Gerberit's website says they sell an ~$400 accessory mounting ring that provides 90 minute fire protection. I did not find testing lab info that confirms this.
https://www.kbauthority.com/geberit...MIgp3Iuf-37gIVTfDACh0m2QHrEAQYASABEgJaUfD_BwE


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View attachment 7412
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Its a start, but I have seen lots of advertisements for "ratings" that aren't backed up by testing so more info would be needed. It may help an FP engineer write an EJ though.
 
why do you not just line the recessed opening with 5/8" much like you would line any other recessed accessory like a fire extinguisher cabinet etc to maintain the rating? plumbing penetrations would need membrane protection too.
 
I agree, the safest solution is to (1) build a furred wall, or (2) box around/behind it with a ring of drywall.

The problem with option 2 is that this is a wall-hung toilet with a metal frame carrier. The manufacturer's installation instructions say to attach directly to studs. Could I find an engineer who will stamp an alternate detail for fasteners going through the drywall, withstanding the bending force? Maybe. But it may also void warranties and I could incur liability for not installing per manufacturer's recommendations, if someone were ever to damage the toilet anchorage (please don't let that mental image ruin your day).
Maybe there's an FPE who could determine how much additional solid blocking (studs) could be provided to create a 1 hr "ring" of studs?
 
Yikes said:
I agree, the safest solution is to (1) build a furred wall, or (2) box around/behind it with a ring of drywall.

The problem with option 2 is that this is a wall-hung toilet with a metal frame carrier. The manufacturer's installation instructions say to attach directly to studs. Could I find an engineer who will stamp an alternate detail for fasteners going through the drywall, withstanding the bending force? Maybe. But it may also void warranties and I could incur liability for not installing per manufacturer's recommendations, if someone were ever to damage the toilet anchorage (please don't let that mental image ruin your day).
Maybe there's an FPE who could determine how much additional solid blocking (studs) could be provided to create a 1 hr "ring" of studs?
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What is the one hour wall for??

corridor, occupancy,. Other ???
 
The simplest answer is fur the wall out and place the in-wall toilet in the furred wall.

Or even simpler, use a wall hung with flushometer valve... or a traditional tanked toilet (really really simple). :cool:
 
JPohling said:
why do you not just line the recessed opening with 5/8" much like you would line any other recessed accessory like a fire extinguisher cabinet etc to maintain the rating? plumbing penetrations would need membrane protection too.
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Not a Tested assembly.
 
steveray said:
Then it is not a "penetration" Of a fire rated assembly that we really care about, Worst case, wrap the studs or triple them up till you get to heavy timber=1 hour.....?
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You cannot "triple them up till you get to heavy timber" framing at just the toilet. Construction type cannot fluctuate from wall to wall. The whole building must be one construction type.
 
Correct.....I was referencing the equivalency of HT to 1 hr rated construction SeeT601 footnote c:

c. In all occupancies, heavy timber shall be allowed where a 1-hour or less fire-resistance rating is required.
 
I don't see alternatives to a tested assembly or EJ except for the double wall idea, but I am sure that has it's logistical problems too. To keep the design intent and look with the hidden tank, I think EJ is the only option. If the DP or MFR isn't providing viable methods I would be making the suggestion that they consult with an FPE and/or a firestop consultant at this point.
 
Sifu said:
I don't see alternatives to a tested assembly or EJ except for the double wall idea, but I am sure that has it's logistical problems too. To keep the design intent and look with the hidden tank, I think EJ is the only option. If the DP or MFR isn't providing viable methods I would be making the suggestion that they consult with an FPE and/or a firestop consultant at this point.
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It's just a rated structural wall not a fire barrier or fire partition......."openings" don't have to be rated, just protect the studs....

Type V-A load-bearing wall, interior to the dwelling unit.
 
A rated load bearing wall is allowed to have unprotected doors and frames. This doesn't seem much different.

A double fire-retardant treated stud on each side should provide equivalent protection. Untreated wood chars about 1.5" per hour, so the first stud, which the tank is attached to, is sacrificial, and the second stud carries the load as the first one chars. FRT wood will char more slowly and increase the safety factor. A code modification might be required to proceed this way.
 
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